A Theological Response to FCBC and its G12 Model
This article is written in response to the G12 model of Faith Community Baptist Church (FCBC), Singapore. The written statements of the church are taken from its official G12 booklet and could be found at www.fcbc.org.sg.
FCBC:
God made a covenant with Abraham to increase his numbers so that he could be a father of many nations (see Gen 17:2-4). This Abrahamic covenant is still relevant to us as a church of Jesus Christ (see Gal 3:6-9). We are called to “father the nations”.
Response:
FCBC has taken the Abrahamic Covenant out of context. While it is true that God made Abraham “the father of many nations” (Genesis 17:4), it does not directly apply to Abraham’s descendants. “You will be the father of many nations” is a divine promise that God specifically gave to Abraham alone; it is not a commandment to be passed down to his descendants. If one reads the Abrahamic Covenant carefully, Abraham’s descendants, whether physical or spiritual, were not called to be “fathers of many nations.”
In Matthew 29:19-20, Jesus gave the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations." The original Greek word for “make disciples” is "mathēteuō," which is to "to follow his precepts and instructions, or to teach, instruct." In the context of the Abrahamic Covenant, the word "father" does not mean, in the English sense, to disciple. The Hebrew meaning for "father" is "the head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan." Abraham was not asked by God at any time to fulfill the divine promise by preaching to the surrounding nations.
In Galatians 3:6-9, the Word of God talks about the Christians being the "children of Abraham" and that "all nations will be blessed through" Abraham. If we take into account Genesis 26:4, the reason why all nations will be blessed is because of Jesus Christ, who is the "offspring" of Abraham. This Scriptural passage says nothing about the Christians becoming "fathers of many nations."
Therefore, as we can see, the meanings of the Hebrew word for "father" and the Greek word for "make disciples" are completely different. "Father of all nations" does not mean "father the nations."
FCBC:
The Government of 12 (G12) Vision is essentially this – to make each of us in FCBC a father of multitudes. The strategy to achieve this is To Win, To Consolidate, To Disciple and To Send.
Response:
There are no promises found in the Bible that indicate each Christian is to be a "father of multitudes." This false teaching totally ignore the sovereignty of God in the work of salvation. Only God knows who are His elect and we could not possibly know how many people would be saved. We are called to preach the gospel, not to convert people (i.e. to "win") who are spiritually dead. Let's leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit.
FCBC:
The basis for the number 12 is the example of Jesus and his 12 disciples. He chose 12 to be his helpers in ministering to the masses (see Matt 9:35-10:1). He stayed with them continually, hence, there is a permanence of relationship. He imparted himself and modelled his life for them to follow so that in turn they were able to lead and disciple others.
Interestingly, after the death of Judas, the 11 disciples filled the position of the 12th disciple in the person of Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Only then, did the Holy Spirit descend and empower them.
Response:
Does the New Testament instruct the Christians to pattern the government of the church on the number twelve? When the Apostle Paul preached to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2) and adopted Timothy as his son, did he use the number twelve to guide his actions in his ministry? In fact, there are no instructions from Jesus or the apostles to use the number twelve as a guide to the organizational structure of the church.
Furthermore, the filling of the position of the 12th apostle was a unique event. It was to fulfill the prophecy in the book of Psalms (Acts 1:20). And there is no indication from the Scriptures that the apostolic position has to be filled before the Pentecost. In Acts 1:4, Jesus simply said: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."
By trying to show a relation between the filling of the 12th position and the Pentecost, FCBC undermines the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and implies that He can be manipulated by a "magic" number. This false teaching reduces the historic Pentecost into a paganistic ritual where the number of apostles is viewed as essential for the Holy Spirit's arrival.
FCBC:
This is a patriarchal system of lineage, with everyone tracing their roots back to Senior Pastor.
Response:
This is clearly unscriptural. Our root is in Christ, not the pastor or the pope. For it is written: "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11) The New Testament warns us against following men. In 1 Corinthians 3:4, it is written: "For when one says, 'I follow Paul,' and another, 'I follow Apollos,' are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task."
This system of church government creates an unnecessary deep level of bureaucracy among Christians. And not only that, it is likely to foster a sense of power and self-importance among the top-level leaders of the church. It seems that the G12 model is a throwback to the Roman Catholic Church's style of government where the popes and cardinals are highly regarded as powerful spiritual men who are inaccessible to the multitudes.
FCBC:
We must recognise the urgency of winning people to Christ, as we discover that the Christian life is not a breeze but a battle. We are all engaged in a war to plunder hell and populate heaven.
Response:
FCBC totally ignored the Biblical doctrine of predestination. It is not by our will that the unbelievers will be saved, but it is by God's will. For it is written: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:16) The elect are already chosen. For it is written: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Ephesians 1:4) By saying that we are to "plunder hell and populate heaven," it is attributing the work of salvation to our wills, not God's sovereign will. This false teaching takes the glory away from God that He totally deserves.
FCBC:
God made a covenant with Abraham to increase his numbers so that he could be a father of many nations (see Gen 17:2-4). This Abrahamic covenant is still relevant to us as a church of Jesus Christ (see Gal 3:6-9). We are called to “father the nations”.
Response:
FCBC has taken the Abrahamic Covenant out of context. While it is true that God made Abraham “the father of many nations” (Genesis 17:4), it does not directly apply to Abraham’s descendants. “You will be the father of many nations” is a divine promise that God specifically gave to Abraham alone; it is not a commandment to be passed down to his descendants. If one reads the Abrahamic Covenant carefully, Abraham’s descendants, whether physical or spiritual, were not called to be “fathers of many nations.”
In Matthew 29:19-20, Jesus gave the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations." The original Greek word for “make disciples” is "mathēteuō," which is to "to follow his precepts and instructions, or to teach, instruct." In the context of the Abrahamic Covenant, the word "father" does not mean, in the English sense, to disciple. The Hebrew meaning for "father" is "the head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan." Abraham was not asked by God at any time to fulfill the divine promise by preaching to the surrounding nations.
In Galatians 3:6-9, the Word of God talks about the Christians being the "children of Abraham" and that "all nations will be blessed through" Abraham. If we take into account Genesis 26:4, the reason why all nations will be blessed is because of Jesus Christ, who is the "offspring" of Abraham. This Scriptural passage says nothing about the Christians becoming "fathers of many nations."
Therefore, as we can see, the meanings of the Hebrew word for "father" and the Greek word for "make disciples" are completely different. "Father of all nations" does not mean "father the nations."
FCBC:
The Government of 12 (G12) Vision is essentially this – to make each of us in FCBC a father of multitudes. The strategy to achieve this is To Win, To Consolidate, To Disciple and To Send.
Response:
There are no promises found in the Bible that indicate each Christian is to be a "father of multitudes." This false teaching totally ignore the sovereignty of God in the work of salvation. Only God knows who are His elect and we could not possibly know how many people would be saved. We are called to preach the gospel, not to convert people (i.e. to "win") who are spiritually dead. Let's leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit.
FCBC:
The basis for the number 12 is the example of Jesus and his 12 disciples. He chose 12 to be his helpers in ministering to the masses (see Matt 9:35-10:1). He stayed with them continually, hence, there is a permanence of relationship. He imparted himself and modelled his life for them to follow so that in turn they were able to lead and disciple others.
Interestingly, after the death of Judas, the 11 disciples filled the position of the 12th disciple in the person of Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Only then, did the Holy Spirit descend and empower them.
Response:
Does the New Testament instruct the Christians to pattern the government of the church on the number twelve? When the Apostle Paul preached to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2) and adopted Timothy as his son, did he use the number twelve to guide his actions in his ministry? In fact, there are no instructions from Jesus or the apostles to use the number twelve as a guide to the organizational structure of the church.
Furthermore, the filling of the position of the 12th apostle was a unique event. It was to fulfill the prophecy in the book of Psalms (Acts 1:20). And there is no indication from the Scriptures that the apostolic position has to be filled before the Pentecost. In Acts 1:4, Jesus simply said: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."
By trying to show a relation between the filling of the 12th position and the Pentecost, FCBC undermines the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and implies that He can be manipulated by a "magic" number. This false teaching reduces the historic Pentecost into a paganistic ritual where the number of apostles is viewed as essential for the Holy Spirit's arrival.
FCBC:
This is a patriarchal system of lineage, with everyone tracing their roots back to Senior Pastor.
Response:
This is clearly unscriptural. Our root is in Christ, not the pastor or the pope. For it is written: "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11) The New Testament warns us against following men. In 1 Corinthians 3:4, it is written: "For when one says, 'I follow Paul,' and another, 'I follow Apollos,' are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task."
This system of church government creates an unnecessary deep level of bureaucracy among Christians. And not only that, it is likely to foster a sense of power and self-importance among the top-level leaders of the church. It seems that the G12 model is a throwback to the Roman Catholic Church's style of government where the popes and cardinals are highly regarded as powerful spiritual men who are inaccessible to the multitudes.
FCBC:
We must recognise the urgency of winning people to Christ, as we discover that the Christian life is not a breeze but a battle. We are all engaged in a war to plunder hell and populate heaven.
Response:
FCBC totally ignored the Biblical doctrine of predestination. It is not by our will that the unbelievers will be saved, but it is by God's will. For it is written: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:16) The elect are already chosen. For it is written: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Ephesians 1:4) By saying that we are to "plunder hell and populate heaven," it is attributing the work of salvation to our wills, not God's sovereign will. This false teaching takes the glory away from God that He totally deserves.
posted by calvinistguy at 10:52 AM
79 Comments:
not a mbr of fcbc.. just happened to chance upon ur blog.. i feel that their vision, is what fcbc hope to achieve. it doesn't mean that it has to be based on a bible promise? G12 is a "movement", i don't know what u call that cos i'm not frm that church or maybe a strategy for them to disciple their members. nothing unscriptural about that.
personally i feel that when a church starts embarking on 'movements' that are not scripture-based, the church is embarking upon a path divergent from the Word and i am not comfortable with that at all. if a church is not about the promises of God and becomes some sort of amorphous independent organ then when is a church a church, and when is it a meeting of lots of people who sing, clap and feel happy about themselves?
but you're picking out statements from a whole para of stuff and just pin pointing it. maybe should look at the whole thing?
I did read the whole thing. I believe those statements are pretty clear enough to be fully comprehended. In addition, there are other general criticisms of G12 on the Internet. Perhaps you could have a look at FCBC's G12 model at its website and judge for yourself whether the points I have raised are correct.
i do think that our sole purpose for being saved is to "go to all nations and preach the gospel". i dont see a big difference btw preaching the gospel and winning souls. is there a big difference btw marketing and selling? (just to quote a worldly example)
Actually, the reason is a bit more complicated than that. The reason we are saved is to glorify God. There is a theological term called the Covenant of Redemption. Before the creation of the world, God the Father entered into an eternal covenant with God the Son, Jesus Christ. Under its terms, the Son voluntarily become subordinate to the Father. The Father gave the elect to the Son who in turn is obliged to pay in full by dying on the cross.
Therefore, for the Covenant of Redemption to be unbroken, we have to be saved. Thus, our salvation is for the glory of God. Our salvation is the work of God. Our faith is from God. The reason we choose to believe is because God chose us first. Salvation is not 50% God's work and 50% Man's faith. Salvation is not even 99% God's work and 1% Man's faith. Salvation is 100% God's work.
As you can see, this boils down to the doctrine of predestination. God has already chosen His elect. Those that He chooses to be saved will be saved. Those that He did not choose will be damned. God also ordained prayer and evangelism to reach the lost.
With this in mind, we are simply God's instruments in His overall plan of salvation for the elect. Our jobs are not to win souls. It is the Holy Spirit who actually regenerate the sinful natures of the non-believing elect when the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to them. Our jobs are to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone.
Let me put it in another way, when you go to Heaven and some of your friends go to Hell even though you preached the gospel to them, it is not your fault. God has already predestined His elect from the beginning and will not let any of His elect go to Hell. The reason some did not believe till the day they die is because they are not predestined to salvation.
If someone is saved because you preached the gospel to him/her, you can't say to yourself, "Oh... it is because of my oratory skills or my good charms. That's why the person is saved." All glory must go to God alone.
With the doctrine of predestination in mind, we would not know exactly how many souls will be saved through our preaching. It might be less than 12, or it could be hundreds of thousands. Only God knows since He ordained evangelism. As we do not know who are the elect, our job is simply to preach to as many people as we can. Maybe it is ordained by God that a particular individual needs 10 evangelists to preach to him and you are one of the chosen 10.
So the number of souls saved are not the issue here. Nobody except God knows the actual number. If you do not know of anyone who is saved under your preaching, don't worry about it. Let God handle the conversion stuff. You just concentrate on your responsibility to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and leave the rest up to God.
May I clarify that while your point of view puts it to you that FCBC has quoted the Abrahamic Covenant out of context (i.e. that the promise to father the nations is for Abraham alone and no one else), the truth isn’t as such.
You know the Great Commission too – to make disciples of all nations. But what does that mean? Does it not mean we should go convert the world? But is conversion enough? Is God’s idea of the Great Commission mere conversion profusely? No, I believe not. As a strong Christian I believe you are, you should know that God’s idea of the Body of Christ (the Church, that is) is one that’s like a community – a family. And FCBC has recognized that. And since every family needs a head – just like the body of Christ has Jesus as its head – the G12 movement is shaped with a “head” leading 12 sons/daughters. It may sound awkward at first, but once you understand the responsibility that this brings about to the ‘head’, you’ll get the picture – this is a responsibility that lasts for a lifetime – there will be responsibility and excellent coverage. That is why the word “Father” (head, like you have shown) have been incorporated into the movement and hence, the Abrahamic Covenant to reinforce the idea and show the Bibilicality of this movement – for what God gave to Abraham, He gives to us too – I mean, would you deny the fact that FCBC “fathering” the nations is pleasing to God?
You accused the FCBC G12 movement as “false teaching”. Do you know what this is tantamount to? Blasphemy! I mean, think about this for a moment – is the G12 movement in any way “moving left or right” from the Bible? Is not the G12 movement FULFILING the Great Commission (Albeit in ways that many conservatives may find a little too aggressive? But hello? It’s the Devil whom we’re against!)? “False teaching”? I beg your pardon.
You are so contradicting. You said we are told to “preach” but NOT “convert”. What, then, do you preach for? NOT to convert?
If we are, like you said, to “leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit”, then WHY did Jesus send the disciples to go cnonvert? Then why did Paul travel everywhere around the then known world risking his life in order to convert? Are they all “leaving” the job to the Holy Spirit? Now, do not get me wrong – the Holy Spirirt is indispensible when it comes to conversion, but hey, it’s a 100% man’s effort and 100% God’s. We are, by no means, told to sit back and merely “preach” and leave everything else to the Holy Spirirt. We are told to PLUNDER HELL TO POPULATE HEAVEN! Plunder, if you know, is vigorous and violent.
The number 12 is not a die-die-must-have thing, if you know the G12 movement truly. It’s a TRADITION. There’s a distinct difference between a tradition and a ritual – one’s for the mere number simply for the sake of the number (puns intended but by no means a devine order) while the other’s something that’s a MUST. The number 12 in the G12 movement is the former.
By no means is FCBC taking the number 12 as a “magic” number – it is merely serving as a goal for the “heads” to achieve (afterall, we all want to convert more for God and be fruitful for Him) and a number for us to “know when to stop”. Like I said, not a must but as a guide. I mean, if there’s not 12, people may choose to stop at 3 or NOT stop at 50. Not that that is wrong, but it’s for the standardisation and neatness. Note that not every “head” has 12 yet. They are just taking the step of faith to believe that God will give them 12 people to “father” and 12 being the number they’ve chosen to believe in God for.
And no, the number 12 is NOT essential (like you lied) for the Holy Spirit to arrive. The Holy Spirit is ALREADY in FCBC. There is no need for the formation of some 12-work to get “more” of the Spirit – just to achieve more.
Tracing back out roots to the Senior Pastor is wrong? Then tell me where you trace your Earthly linage to? NOT China, but to Jesus? What is wrong with this style of government? Unlike the catholic system where everyone comes back to the Pope ultimately, the G12 system is a system of 12s where every 12 people have one head – just like the family (which is a system that God created). And unlike the Catholics, FCBC members are told to TRY everything said – they do not trust the Senior Pastor blindly like Catholics do the Pope. The Senior Pastor is merely there to act as a leader – like institution requires. Christ is still the head of this household. FCBC is not anti-minion.
No one feels “superior” to another. The whole of FCBC is one body – the eye is not inferior to the leg just like the senior pastor is not superior to the least member of the church in the eyes of God. This is just your human thinking and assumptions in action. “Sense of power and self-importance” stems from pride – is that so strong in your life that that is what comes to your mind immediately at the mention of the G12 movement?
“Doctrine of predestination”! Ahah! A Calvinist afterall! May I point out that the Doctrine is still one of the most strongly debated issues in Christian theology and no denomination has ever come up with a fool-proof answer to whether it’s right or wrong yet. It’s still being disputed.
I, personally, do NOT believe in full predestination. Yes, God already knows what’s up for the entire time of our lives, but Salvation is STILL a choice for everyone. God is not an unjust God – he does NOT deny anyone (not a single person) eternal life simply by the idea of “predestination”. It is merely FOOLISH and condemnable a human idea that “who should be saved will be saved anyway”. Selfish and totally detached from the heart of God.
See now why FCBC ignores the idea (NOT doctrine - yet) of predestination? Because it’s not completely right – God knows, but we still have a choice. We’re not robots merely acting out his script.
God already knows – that’s because He’s not bound by time! It’s too vast for our puny minds to get this but in short, Heaven has no time (He created time) so he knows everything that has happened and will happen – but what will happen and has happened were ALL choices made by men! God did not manipulate anyone into doing anything at all.
Our plundering, by the way, would be futile if not for God – FCBC recognizes that Salvation comes from God and God decides – but we MUST do our part too – or are you telling us that we should have nothing to do on earth but to “preach” and not care about whether people get converted because “no matter how well we preach or what we do, it’s useless since the Holy Spirit will be doing His job regardless of what I do anyway”?
I'm beginning to seriously doubt your knowledge of the Bible.
Jesus said "whoever is not against us is for us".
Is TCC, FCBC, CHC AGAINST Jesus in any way? The only thing these churches are doing against (with regards to you) is going against the WRONG Calvinist teaching of predestination.
Why are you so fluffed up by TCC, FCBC and CHC? Because they're far bigger, popular and spirit-filled than your Calvinist churches?
The predestination issue is a sensitive one for many of us because it involves those who are close to us. I would know, having met with apathy and reluctance from my very best friends with regards to the faith.
But for you to say that God has perfect knowledge of the choice we will make does not negate the fact that we must take responsibility for the choices we make. It is a choice insofar as we are mortals and make mortal choices. Because we exist as mortals we can never judge events and occurrences from an immortal vantage point. Hence it is pointless for us to say that we don't have to feel guilty if we don't give our all to preaching the Gospel -- that would only make it foreseen by God that we would not live up to our mission. One cannot divorce the fate of non-Christian souls from one's efforts to spread the Word on the basis of God's perfect knowledge, as just because God knows something will or will not happen does not mean that we have no responsibility or accountability on that score. God knew we would sin, but that does not exonerate us from it. Similarly God may know if we choose to believe in Him or not from the start of time, but that does not excuse us from -not- believing, or -not- spreading the faith as Christians. Also if we do live up to the mission and spread the Gospel, we might be termed "good and faithful servants" (Matt 5:21) but I agree with Beowulf that the glory must go back to God. We may use our abilities and spiritual gifts to effectively spread the Word -- charisma, confidence -- but the sovereignty of God as our Creator and hence the Giver of our gifts must always be made apparent.
So I guess in essence, I disagree with the attitude which Beowulf seems to have, that "God already predestined the elect so we don't have to feel guilty if that person doesn't believe" because that leads to an inclination to give less than 100% -- the first part is true, but the second part not necessarily. And in the same way that non-believers are not exonerated by virtue of predestination, neither should believers be exonerated of the responsibility to preach the faith. But I agree that no matter how many people we are able to convince of God's truth, all glory should go to God -- and I don't always see this accurately reflected in these mega churches. Sorry if this is rambly and unfocused. 2.20 am lar.
To Gayle:
No, I did not imply that "believers be exonerated of the responsibility to preach the faith." Neither did I imply "we don't give our all to preaching the Gospel."
God predestined the elect and God also predestined evangelism. That means He predestined every one of us to preach the gospel to non-believers.
We are to evangelise because it is commanded in the Bible to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are the Holy Spirit's instruments in spreading the gospel. Note that the Holy Spirit use us, not we use the Holy Spirit.
And you have misunderstood how the Reformed doctrine of predestination works. The choice we make to believe in the gospel is determined by God. Our faith (choice) is a gift from God. We are absolutely incapable of seeking God in the first place. The Holy Spirit has to change our sinful nature in order for us to make us believe.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved." (Ephesians 2:1-5)
A response to Yaevlejunce can be found here.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
This verse deals with two Biblical truths in the doctrine of predestination; limited atonement and irresistible grace.
When one says God loved the world, does the word "world" means every person on earth? Notice the verse that follows after John 3:16, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:17)
If the word "world" means every person, then according to John 3:17 everyone will eventually be saved. Obviously, this universalistic teaching is at odds with Biblical Christianity.
Here is a quote from A. W. Pink, a Reformed theologian:
"But the objector comes back to John 3:16 and says, 'World means world.' True, but we have shown that 'the world' does not mean the whole human family. The fact is that 'the world' is used in a general way. When the brethren of Christ said 'Show thyself to the world' (John 7:4), did they mean 'Shew Thyself to all mankind'? When the Pharisees said 'Behold, the world is gone after Him' (John 12:19), did they mean that 'all the human family' were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, 'Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world' (Rom. 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on earth? When Rev. 13:3 informs us that 'all the world wondered after the beast', are we to understand that there will be no exceptions? These, and other passages which might be quoted, show that the term 'the world' often has a relative rather than an absolute force."
In the doctrine of irresistible grace, faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). The phrase "whoever believes in him" does not in any way contradict this Biblical truth. To put it in another way, John 3:16 states that Jesus Christ died for the elect who are given the gift of faith through God's grace.
The verse John 3:16 cannot be read on its own, but should be read according to its entire context. You must also consider the other verses found in the Gospel of John where it is shown God sovereignly predestined His elect.
1. "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." (John 1:13)
2. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)
3. "He went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.'" (John 6:65)
4. "He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (John 8:47)
5. "... The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." (John 10:25-26)
6. "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." (John 15:16)
7. "... As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world ..." (John 15:19)
You seem quite free to think thru whether this vision or tt vision is biblical or not... Why dun you spend this time reaching to the lost??? Have you lost your compassion for the lost??? Is your Christian life fruitful???
A fruitful Christian life is one that tries to glorify God. And yes, I do devote my efforts to preaching the gospel, as well as refuting false teachings, which is commanded in the Bible.
Responding to "You are quite free said..." (27/12/05 10:40 PM), though I do not know beowulf,I feel that your comment has been unfair.
I too have this (strange) habit of
thinking thru whether vision of churches or chrsitian org is biblical or not... Not that I'm very clever, or very biblical, or too free... But, these visions do serve as good material for personal bible study!! When one do not know what biblie topic to study for a particular day, these G12, & etc movements can become an interesting area of study.Where areas of teachings that seems unbiblical, I just point them out to friends, on blog...By doing this, I hope that others help me clarify my doubts on these issues. Sadly, very often, christians of these movements/ churches which I ask questions become angry/ agitated. I do not get to clarify my doubts, but get "lablelled" as not understanding the bible, not loving God, unloving, trying to divide the church & many more.... It seems strange to me, that if those "reprimand" me are so biblical,so christ-like, they should have the humility to talk, to defend their positions, & not "label" people.
Discipleship, evangelism & personal growth develop together.
I see no crash. We can reach the lost, Have compassion for the lost, & yet stillbe concerned about the develpment in the church at large.How can this form of Christian life be unfruitful???
I do STRONGLY AGREE with yaevlejunce. I find that FCBC is a church that definitely believes in the Word of God. Moreover, the teachings of Apostle Lawrence Khong are definitely scriptural.
I personally do not agree with predestination. Does that mean that preaching to a devout Buddhist once, and when he doesnt get saved, we leave him to his fate, and not continuously reach out TILL his salvation? I believe Ezekiel 3:18 said that ''when i say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die', and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS BLOOD''. Do you see that? We are SUPPOSED to work in evangelism to see the salvations of many, if not WE are accountable before who? GOD!!. So its not right to say that His Elect will go to Heaven, the rest to Hell, condemned. The Great Commission states that we sholu ''go forth and make disciples of ALL Nations..'' and these are words from the mouth of Lord Jesus Christ Himself!! Does it mean only some people from USA will be saved? NO!! EVERYBODY MUST BE SAVED!!!!! We should continue to evangelise to see the WHole World won for Christ. And who says the megachurches are not focused on the Holy Spirit? Do you know that in FCBC, the church focuses on worshippping the Holy Spirit, in CHC prayer always begans in worshipping in Tongues...So beowulf...please stop decieving others, especially if you have not even visited these churches...
I know it is a bit out since anyone commented on this blog but as I was looking for infomration about g12 it came up so I wanted to comment.
All those who are attacking the orignal post, seem to be in defense mode, and for good reason. The posting are acurate to everything I have read and heard and seen of the G12 movement.
People accusing the poster of not knowing the bible, or of G12 are attacking the person not the facts.
Just a few things. G12 has slipped into so many churches because it does look like a biblical sound movement that could only be a benefit to church growth. But when you look at what really happens at those who are "true" g12, you see what it is all based on, which is not biblical.
A structure that in the end all looks to one man, Cesar C. A man that supposedly had a vision where he says that g12 is the ONLY way of running the Christian church. Meaning that all other ways are useless. They have also come out against anyone who alters G12 at all, saying it will fail unless you do it exactly the way Cesar C. says, so P12 and others using encounters and G12 items, according to G12 are bound to fail and are not doing what they need to do for God.
You can go onto the bulletin boards and see the damage of G12 churches, the leadership structure, the forceful tactics, intimidation and guilt trips put on people for not being able to attend a meeting.
The fact is, as the original poster stated, that the bible does not say do groups of 12, follow Cesar C. There are no true examples of that in the bible, why not the number 7 or 40, they are also common numbers in the bible? You don't see Paul telling the church, get into your groups, go to your encounters? G12 says that these types of things are a neccesity.
The bible does not call everyone to be a leader, hence the reason the bible tells us we all have different gifts, we are all different pieces of the body. G12 preaches that EVERYONE needs to be a leader of 12, so says God, so says Cesar C.
In the end there isn't anything wrong with going out and sharing the gospel, duh, nor is there a problem with the basic idea of forming groups to have bible studies/teachings in the church.
But when presented in this way, the only way, built on false belief and exaltation of a man, and false doctrine, the church should not follow it. There is a big difference in, lets try this, and we have to do it because God told me so.
Churches have grown in number, but based on false doctrine and practices, so where does that leave them?
G12 is bad for the Christian church.
I think it's very ungracious to accuse each other of "lying" here. If all of you are Christians who truly follow after Christ's example, you all should stop using such harsh words and tones against one other. Can't you all see that you are all talking about the same thing, the same God, the same Bible? The difference is a matter of emphasis, and you're all just creating a storm out of a teacup. Tell you all something hor, if you go on like this, no one would want to be a Christian --- to much trouble --- "farn nao"
Let me remind ourselves who are believers not to engage in strife. Whatever God has spoken to Pastor Khong is for him to do. Who are we to judge? God did not speak to us about G12. So, let's stop all this bickering and instead pray for FCBC to be a success in whatever God has called this church to be. I pray for God's abundant blessings on FCBC and Pastor Khong.
Brothers you have harsh comment about the Catholic faith. If you know history well enough you should be thankful that the Catholics compiled the Bible for us all. If you have theological questions regarding Catholicism converse with some Catholic theologian for a fair exchange of the knowledge of God and the Bible. God gave us free will and with this we can choose to cooperate or not to cooperate with his grace. God seeing in the future those who will not cooperate with his saving Grace is not responsible for their damnation. Seeing or knowing those who will not cooperate and will be damned does not equate to God's predestining some of us into hell.
Well Yaevlejunce said most of what I would say...you need to go and check out the Pastor Casear Castinolles(Bogato,Columbia)because he first was given this vision from God and their website and information may be more clear to you then the FCBC.I am a member of a G12 church and have met Pastor Ceasear.Though the g12 way may seem strange to you it is not your right to critize/judge..that is God's job,our churches and people aren't perfect but we do our best to do the will of God.God didn't leave us on earth after we accepted Christ just to walk around blinded to the hurting people around us,we are to take what God has given us and done for us and in turn help someone else and show thwm the way to Christ.Yes their salvation can only come by the work of the Holy Spirit,but if we don't tell them there is salvation how will they know?When there are many in church it is hard for the pastor to have to time to help them all.Our leaders are ther to guide us and the seek God for consoule and to help us and sometimes they seek our pastors if need be,without my leader I would be lost,I would not have anyone to help me when I am struggling in life or in my walk with Christ,yes I go to God for guidence but we all need a support system.I grew up in church and was saved as a young person but lost my way because I did not have anyone to show me how to read and study my Bible,pray or war against the devil whose main purpose is to steal kill and destry us.Many people have been save from this "movement" as you call it, and many have had life changing experince in which would not have happened other wise,believe me I would be dead or on living on the streets,lost my children ,an addict and in destrutive or immoral realtionships if not for the g12 church and the family I have found there.I pray God shows you this g12 vision was in deed from Him.The Bible say that God desires that none shall perish,through the g12 vision God's word is being spread througghtout the world so that all the worl may have a chance to know God and have a chance to choose salvation through Christ.Yes God already knows those who will chose Him but He made man with free will and we chose Him or something or some else.It is our purpsoe to tell others about His salvation through Christ so they have that chance to chose salvation.
This seams to me as a case of different people facing the same command but accusing each other of using different methods. If everyone on earth was the same, we would all use the same method to reach them.
If G12 is what God gives you and your people become disciples, God will be the judge of the fruit. We all have different areas of the world to reach.
In my opinion, G12 (like any other vision/ movement) is a tool. Let those who embrace it, use it. Where others have another tool, let them use it. At the end, God gets the glory for a tool properly used. Any tool that is not of God will not stand.
For example, if God gives me a ship, and gives my friend a bike, it would be silly for me to carry my ship to reach the people in the mountains or for him to try ride on the oceans to the islands. I should focus on the seas/ islands and encourage my friend on the bike to get the people in the mountains. My biking friend would have & give advice backed by his experience biking and I based on my experience sailing. We will find wrong areas in each others method/ tool but that doesnt discount them. Question then is whether disciples being made? Not the tool used!
This, in my opinion, is our problem here. Search and you will find pros and cons of G12 (like every human endeavor before and after it) but we should all seek to please and glorify God. Whichever tool we have, lets go around the world and ensure we have fruit that remains/ disciples/ converts (whichever terminology is preferable).
Why do you guys want to criticise and hurt the body of Christ in FCBC? Think about it... Beowulf, is it for you to judge? FCBC is using the G12 to fufill the Great Commission, which is to win more people to the Lord. Remember, judge not & you'll not be judged. If this is God's Will for FCBC to use the G12 Vision, it will not fail because God's hand is with them. In fact, you may be judged for criticising & attacking the very work of God. God Bless You
I fully agree with you, Anonymous.
Anyway, I would encourage beowulf and all who strongly felt there is something wrong with the church to GO VISIT the church, interact with the members, and know for yourself whether they really love the Lord, Jesus Christ, and that they are moving passionately for the Lord and His glory or for their Senior Pastor.
Why interpret subjectively from one-page in a web-site? Life is not found in that page.
In His Service,
Another Anonymously His
Is it true that of about 170 full time workers, about 70 have left FCBC since the start of G12?
My daughters life is being destroyed by g12 is there help for me as a parent? michaelsblck@yahoo.com
G12 brothers movement has been declared a heretical sect by all evangelical churches.
go to google and write pronouncements of all evangelical churches against the sect and the G12 translated and read
go to www.google.com then write
LOS PRONUNCIAMIENTOS DE TODAS LAS IGLESIAS EVANGELICAS CONTRA LA SECTA G12
then enter and read
DECLARATION OF THE CONFEDERATION OF CHURCHES FUNDAMENTAL EVANGELICALS OF PERU
CONCERNING THE MOVEMENT OF G12
XXIII CIEF-PERU NATIONAL CONGRESS
RESOLUTION CONCERNING THE MOVEMENT OF G12
The XXIII National Congress of the Confederation of the Church of Evangelical Fundamentalists of Peru (CIEF-PERU), assembled in the Evangelical Church “Aposento Alto” of the city of Chimbote, Ancash –Peru, under the general theme: “Todays threats against the Faithful Christian Church”
(1 Timothy 4:1), taking place from the 1st to 4th of February 2006,
CONSIDERING:
1. Whereas, having the most permanent prophetic word (the word of God, the Holy Scriptures, the Holy Bible) (2 Peter 1; 19), which gives us all the standards with which to fulfill the great comission, which gives us the sound doctrines by which every Christian Evangelical Church should be founded (Ephesians 2:20);
2. Whereas, having knowledge by the Holy Scriptures, that the Spirit demonstratingly speaks, that in the latter days some will depart from the faith giving heed to spirits of error and demonic doctrines ( 1 Timothy 4:1);
3. Whereas, in these initial times of the third millenium denominations are consolidating, founded on erroneous theologies and doctrines, knowingly through the Word of God, that we live in dangerous times (2 Timothy 3:1);
4. Whereas, the G12 Movement, to the light of a sound Hermeneutics and Biblical Exegesis, is an erroneous Movement thus, dangerous;
5. Whereas, the G12 Movement, is part of the Charismatic Movement with an ecumenical tendency, supposedly originated in a revelation by God to the Presbiter Cesar Castellanos and this resembles the founders of false sects most known in actual times;
6. Whereas, the G12 Movement has questionable doctrines, such as the Generational Curses, Inner Healing, Positive Confession, etc. and are doctrines clearly opposed by the Biblical teachings; and
7. Whereas, the G12 Movement is a dangerous movement because it has deviated practices such as regression as a psycological therapy.
RESOLVED, THEREFORE:
1. To call all the Evangelical Churches to not ignore the threats and heresies that have infiltrated many congregations, being the G12 Movement one of the last infiltrated heresies.
2. To call all the Evangelical Churches, its pastors and principal leaders, to be seriously and responsibly informed through the Confederation of the Church of Evangelical Fundamentalists of Peru (CIEF-Peru), or by another serious and trustworthy means (which in reality are few) concerning this pernicious movement to the biblical faith of many believers and churches; and
3. Exhort each believer in Christ Jesus to live a faithful daily devotional, through scripture, meditation and obedience to the Word of God, to prayer and service to the Lord, in such a way live spiritually strong to discern and confront every threat against their precious faith.
Chimbote, February 4th 2006
CIEF: “In defense of the Faith and Sound Doctrine”
Judas 3
Predestination is a false teaching. I have yet to hear a calvinist justify predestination without quoting non-divine scripture, the likes of Calvin and Piper.
"The lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"
2 Peter 3:9 (emphasis added)
Beowolf how do you not see the contradiction? You say its 100% God's work but yet you say God uses us as instruments to preach. How is that 100% God?
Please see the truth. Predestination is a Doctrine invented by man and has no biblical basis whatsoever. None.
I've been in this G12 for a while and now I am out. I am still in FCBC, only attending SUndays services. There is now no acocuntability for me and this is bad i know. The structure is there for discipleship and multiplication IF there is really discipleship. Then this model is very good. So it all depends on the leaders. If FCBC keep winning people to the church but fail to truyly disciple them, and people will leave eventually and worse still, be blamed for leaving and not able to walk the mile with them, disobedient, etc. This is very damaging. The leaders have become someone who treat people as numbers only and not willing to disciple members at all. When they feel that a member is goingthe worng way, they gladly throw them out and ignore them. When they come back as a 'prodigal son', they were told that they are not the leader type and therefore tell them to go under the pyramid because the leader does not want to disciple them but just throw them around like balls. Doesn;t matter if they throw you to a new inexperienced leader... I personally feel that there is really no discipleship in the system. It is good to have meetings with your leader, leader's leader and your own cell members. This is call relationship building and only when we truly meet to do what is supposed to do, then there will be impartations.
But, in reality, nobody knows what's going on in the so-called discipleship. The meetings are administrative only and not meetings to disciple people's lives. There are people who are against the G12 by giving reasons that there are alot of meetings and programs. I feel this is not a good reason to condemn G12. But if the meetings are dry and administrative in nature only, no discipleship, then the people and the new ones too will be very confused and dry spiritually.
Alsop, we know that the leaders 'choose' their 12 . O, so they choose the elites.. what happen if you are not chosen? A group will close its door once it has 12. Will they accept one more? A good leader with potential to impart to more than 12 (as many as possible) is being limited to 12 only. The rest will not be directly influenced by a good leader. Also, leaders being human will tend to have a sense of superiority and elitism , making it very damaging to the people who ar e'not in that category'. Weekly they know the elite chosen 12 are meeting and they are not part of it. They are not partof their lives and their circle of friends. Very closed-up. In the old cell system, cells are open to all and anyone feel free to join in and be imparted and be imspired. I am refering to very good leaders who can impart to more people and anyone who yearns to be mentored by a good leader. Here in G12, it is hard and the door is very closed. End up, there are many people who just become un-cell and lesser involved. They have a heart to be involved but somehow this has become near impossible. That is one reason why people left to go to a church where they can serve more.
Ezekiel 34
Shepherds and Sheep
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
7 " 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.
11 " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.
25 " 'I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of wild beasts so that they may live in the desert and sleep in the forests in safety. 26 I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. [a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. 27 The trees of the field will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. 30 Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Sovereign LORD. 31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
This Eze 34 is especially for the "shepherds" of FCBC! on the outside they look like real shepherds who are into the VISION and "caring" for the sheeps but the on inside is a totally different story....a story that NOBODY knows.
THERE IS NO DISCIPLESHIP on the inside. Only seen as having DOSCIPLESHIP on the OUTSIDE.
what's the point of expanding oikos and getting the people in but don't disciple them? There is NO discipleship even though they claim there is. Full of lies
Arrogant and Exclusivist Attitudes
1. They present the model of the group of 12 as the only answer and paradigm of God for the present millennium, which should be adopted by all and therefore those who do not are condemned to failure and extinction.
2. Disdain for the diversity of Gods activity, as is seen throughout history, and the limitation to only one model for all peoples and cultures.
3. In direct opposition to the Gospel, which promotes love and union, the participants of this model/movement despise and cut relations with all those who do not participate in "the vision" and respective forms of worship.
4. Because the proposed model is "the vision of God", only the ones who accept it constitute the true people of God and the Church of Jesus, which is a typical and characteristic attitude of the sects.
Hello all, pleased to meet you.
I am a Catholic.
My sweetheart attends FCBC.
Just some clarifications.
"It seems that the G12 model is a throwback to the Roman Catholic Church's style of government where the popes and cardinals are highly regarded as powerful spiritual men who are inaccessible to the multitudes."
Inaccessible?
You may email the Pope.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7587388/
'It is unlikely you will receive a personal response if you send an email to the pope, but the Holy See does read, collect and route all mail.'
But why would you need to go all the way to the Pope? A priest would usually suffice.
"they do not trust the Senior Pastor blindly like Catholics do the Pope."
Yes, we have the doctrine of papal infallibility (not impeccability, which is quite different... the Pope is perfectly human and goes for weekly Confession) - which is why we are One Church, not many. (if you disagree on major issues with your spiritual leader, how could you purport to share the same faith?)
The Pope is infallible not through his own merit, but by the action of the Holy Spirit, and his authority can be traced in visible unity of the apostolic succession from St. Peter, who received his authority from Christ: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp
'This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.'
Pax vobiscum
Peace be with you.
In any case, the Pope is only infallible in certain cases.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5355758.stm
The agreement reached by the Council stated that a Pope "when he speaks ex cathedra" - that is, as head of the Church - is "possessed of infallibility" when "he defines.... a doctrine concerning faith and morals to be held by the whole Church".
Once the Pope has spoken, the First Vatican Council agreed, his definitions "are irreformable of themselves".
Routine papal teaching, however, is not considered infallible.
And such infallible proclamations are highly uncommon. According to papal historian Michael Walsh there has only been one occasion since the council proclamation when a pope has made an infallible statement.
...
To issue an infallible statement "you make a dogmatic statement 'ex cathedra' from the chair of Peter".
...
And, if the Pope rarely issues an infallible statement, why is it necessary? According to Mr Walsh, it's all down to the way the Church is structured.
"The Catholic Church is really a federation of churches," he says. "Each bishop rules his own diocese, but all those bishops are united in the Pope, as the Bishop of Rome.
"The bishops are supposed to be united in faith, but when there is division over theological issues, the argument is that the one person who can never fall away from the faith is the pope. He, in a sense, maintains the true faith and will be prevented by the Holy Spirit of 'going into error'."
-=+=-
The Catholic Church is like a wheel - the Vatican is the hub, and each diocese is at the end a spoke.. but it is one wheel, and thus we roll along..
Contrast between Groups of 12 and Servant Leadership
1. G-12 leadership exercises control over followers. SL serves fellow believers. “He who wants to be great in the Kingdom of God must be the servant of all.” (Matthew 23:11; Mark 10:44 )
2. G-12 grants affirmation and value on the basis of merit (i.e., multiplying cells). SL emphasizes the grace of God in the life of the believer and accepts the child of God on that basis.
3. In G-12, the disciples serve the leader and obey unquestioningly. SL considers disciples as brothers and friends mutually serving the Lord. (See Mark 10:42-43)
4. G-12 leadership sometimes motivates people negatively with threats of cursing. SL motivates with love.
5. G-12 authority is rooted in power and position. SL authority is rooted in character and humility.
6. The G-12 model encourages members to depend on the leader. SL encourages members to depend on God. “There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.” (I Timothy 2:5)
7. Followers in G-12 are to accept their leaders’ instructions unconditionally. SL encourages followers to develop Spirit-directed discernment.
8. G-12 followers are driven to seek position within the church. SL followers are encouraged to serve one another without regard for power positions.
9. G-12 emphasizes results. Unproductive people are disregarded. SL places personal relationships at a premium, valuing the individual and helping the weak.
10. G-12 promotes competition among leaders. SL promotes unity and synergism with one another.
These are just some of my concerns. The hierarchical leadership structure at ICM is a strictly top-down design. Control and standardization are prime values. The leader speaks for God and anyone who doesn’t think so is not from God. This attitude leads to blind followership and the temptation to abuse authority. It is not right. It can lead to cult-like practices.
So convinced are G-12 proponents of their model that they insist that it was divinely revealed to the founding pastor. Anybody who doesn’t think so is just not in tune with the Holy Spirit. So great is the importance of the number 12 that it borders on numerolatry. Some proponents of G-12 have said that churches will be judged on the basis of “the government of the 12.” One teaching has it that Elisha, if he had been plowing with only 11 oxen, would not have been chosen as Elijah’s successor. I was drawn to the cell church movement because we were told that “people are more important than programs.” In G-12, the number “12” seems to be more important than people are.
Anyone who would like to implement the model in their own church is told that “adaptation” or contextualization is out of the question. If you want to use G-12 you must “adopt” it like it is practiced in ICM. To do otherwise would be to lose the “anointing.” Cell church has meant the application of transferable principles rather than the mimicking of models. G-12 takes the opposite approach.
With all this present in G-12, why are so many people ready to jump on board, accepting the model uncritically? I met a Canadian brother who resented my even questioning the applicability of G-12 to his church. I think there are at least two reasons. One, most people who come to a G-12 conference or who hear preaching on the subject only get the good side. And there are some good things. But many from outside of Latin America do not speak Spanish and do not stick around to really “dig in.” They simply are not exposed to these abuses. In the meantime, many Latin American pastors accept the G-12 leadership concepts as normative.
Secondly, pragmatism replaces serious reflection. One colleague in Ecuador took me to task when we debated G-12 strategy, insisting that God must be in it or there would not be such impressive results. I am not prepared to say how much “God is in it” or not in it. But big numbers are bewitching and many people have taken G-12 hook, line and sinker with only one criterion for acceptance: explosive growth. It’s time to look deeper into this area of leadership practice and the beliefs that undergird it. It may mean we discover that such practice is not built on Biblical principles at all but on concepts of highly structured, top-down leadership borrowed from other sources.
I am from FCBC.
It's true that a CLEAR vision either divides or unite and in any CLEAR vision, there will be division, else it will not be a CLEAR vision.
A CLEAR vision is either Good or Bad. So is this vision Good? Why is it causing my family so much pain and separation? And when I want to leave, I am scared that I will be under a curse as I have been taught or brainwashed.... this is an abusive system . I cannot tell anybody, not even SP. Because I would be causing problems to the pastors.
G12 is very manipul;ative of people, telling people there's one way of how to do church and that this is the biblical model. Instead of being organic, it's becoming very controolingand leads people down destructive lanes.
I sometimes fantasise about being told by leadership that I have "rejected them" and calmly replying, "Funny. I feel rejected myself."
We are all being 'set free from rejection' and then being rejected all over again by those people who claimed to be pastors and who claimed to help others be free from rejection (encounters etc).
The leaders will somehow get the sympathy that they have been rejected by the members.. The TRUTH is the MEMBERS are REJECTED by the leaders. No one speak up for members at all.
By the way, they are just 'spiritual leaders' and not 'all leaders'.. and they failed their jobs terribly.
The church - FCBC is no longer what it used to be anymore. No more glory. It has left. The system has become filled with abusive pastors who tell people that they are not christians or they can go to hell and be rejected by God if they do not be a cell leader. City Harvest is a better church. Godly , true and the presence of God is there every week. It is a great church.. and is growing expponentially and truly influencing and impacting positively to the marketplace in a big way. Unlike this fcbc.. cultish!
Hi all, I just wanted to say that maybe its time to stop this mindless attacks on each other. Why be guilty of judging? For anti-G12 people, are you 101% sure that G12 is heretical or a fallacy? If it is, then why are the G12 Churches in S Africa, Columbia, S America all growing exponentially? Why put yourselves in a judgmental position? I believe that if its heretical, like what Gamaliel said in Acts, the whole thing will collapse by itself. Therefore, after seeing so much success and growth of G12 around the world, are you 101% certain its not from the Lord?
For pro-G12 people, like what Apostle Khong said, there's no need to defend FCBC or himself, For the Lord watches over His people. I can attest to God's constant Provision and Blessings to FCBC, in while that many have left, the church remains 10,000-strong. This is a testament itself of God's Blessings. Let God be the Judge of G12.
still not sure at all, regarding the blessings in this movement. It seems obvious this is a movement of men only. the success is men's effort. Men are very capable beings too. How do you explain the permanent damages to the people who have been in this system -- abused? We are talking about spirtual abuse here. How can HE entrust FCBC with more people? Is FCBC really 10K strong, or 6K?
I don;t think people are judgiing lawrence khong. I believe g12 system is not bad.. byt perhaps it is driven by imperfect and self righteous leaders (including pastors) who Rule without using their brains and hearts. SP needs dynamic , younger, and really those with pastoral hearts to lead the people. Not just some old guys who cannot be bothered when people are having problems and just rather drop them easily.... not even lifting a finger to help or bring them back. Instead, pointing fingers at those who leave and judging them as rebellious, disobedient, useless christians. Bearin mind many of these christians they hurt were pre believers before, whom they reached out to. Now, when they hits problems or feel discouraged, the pastors are far gone and away from them claiming that they are heroes , who need to save the prebelievers (lost souls), as being more important.
Fcbc???? PUI!!!!!!!
the Magic of love is good. everything else is.. except this g12 thingy... that suddenly lets the church come under the authority of a man in bogota
FUCK FUCK FUCK.
FUCK YOU ALL.
from: an fcbc member
First, no human converts anyone, only the Holy Spirit. The word is monergism, look it up. Second, does the G12 movement have any roots in any creeds? Be suspicious of them if they don't.
they have no roots except the root that trace back to a guy from bogota who claims he had a vision......... and all to submit to him & call him 'daddy'.
Is G12 Evil?
It is VERY VERY!!!
Ok, not lah. but people can use this to abuse other emotionally.
"If you are not a leader, then you are 2nd class christians, without talent , not the elite , and not chosen"..
Look what Jesse thinks of his son David... someone who cannot achieve anything, not talented, fit to just look after cattles. .. not the 'do big things' types.
shit church - FCBC
don't bother with this fcbc church already la. let go of your bitterness. Join City Harvest Chucrh . It's the best church in Singapore. Go for the BEST, ok... and let out your greatest potential.
FCBC is history. I just met some of my friends.. they attend City Harvest. Wow, totally cool.! Congrats to them.
Fernand says I felt in this false doctrine for many years, one year ago I runed away from it
I saw leaders doing the job of the Holy Spirit pushing people to bad and false doctrines actions to get the blessings of God If they didnt do it they were coursing you or made you guilty for everything. G12 is awfull lying many people.
I've been ruined by it already and beyond cure! I am feeling uilty daily and now I am on drugs to ease my pain. I was a healthy christian and now I am very sick... I am hooked on cigarettes again, and hooked on some soft drugs. I felt pain in my emtions... nobody can see this pain
a big SIGH!!!!!!!!!
I am out of the system nw, though still atttending church every now and then because I really have no 'family' there anymore and it's kind of strange.
Well, the leader can only have twelve. And if I can't make it to the group, I would be 'seeped' under someone I don't really know and whom I am sure cannot impart to me and my family and future 'tribe' the way that leader could , in whom I respected and wanted to learn from.
So, I am now just a church goer but not in any discipleship structure. I wish I can do more and be able to get involved, but it is tough and there is like, no way for me to go to th eleader anymore, except someone in the 'downline' of that leader whom really is very different. At that time, we hardly meet anyway and we are like strangers most of the time. So, no point la. GAVE UP.
Fcbc is a church when you bring out you need help they will attack u and say you talk nonsence
A stressful church to begin with and end with. Just dunno what to describe the systems are all hay wire. concentrate on the new members. When old members face problems they never look into the matter. Because they dunno how to handle then ask you to leave. people come and go. quite sad rite
G12 vision is scary. everyone have to submit to their leaders. Their leaders tend to have some autority power and tend to misuse it. most of the people die under them thats why change church
well, we should submit to our leaders. See the bible.. God said so. We need to submit to authority. BUT BUT, in fcbc, the leaders are SCARY. They look good on the fornt in front of their 'top line' such as SP for example but deep down they are abusive AND TAKE THEIR AUTHORITY FOR GRANTED.
I am deeply hurt and saddened . I submit to the leader but they do nothing but continue to hurt and abuse. WHAT SHOULD I DO?????!!
You saw the movie 'Changeling'?? Give the law enforcers (police) authority and they abuse their authority and 'run' the system anyhow they like. Run Wild. Injustice. Corrupt.
So, it is with this sort of system. And it is happening now in fcbc, even the 144 levels. No joke.
BUT SP dunno. haha, dumbass.
hahahaha
Visit www.chc.or.sg please.
Best church in Singapore!!!
Also their Asia Conference coming up in May 2010 , not to be missed.
1 Peter 5:1-5
1)To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2)Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3)not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.4) And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.5) Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
Dear Friends,
It may be true that we need to be humble ourselves to those whom are older(spiritually also).
But MORE SO important are to be said For the ELDERS/Sheperds/Pastors/Cell Leaders to understand that it is written in the Word Of God that no one is to "Lord over" (rule over) their sheep, but only serve them as good examples of men following after the only Lord Jesus Christ's teachings.
Thus, I hope and pray that all sheperds will first understand their responsibilites and weight of their burden in sheperding their flock and for the Holy Spirit to help them in doing so.
For the phrase to bear good fruits for the Lord is to allow the Holy Spirit to mould your character from within and thus using these gifts/(good fruits) (Galatians 5:22) to bear good testimony and glory to God.
It does not imply as good fruits as multitudes in this sense, as they are what will happen, after we become more like Jesus in character (given by the Holy Spirit).
I share my doubts to the G12 movement, as i feel that to numbers is not the main issue, but rather good fruits. Also, i agree with beowulf and many on their view points. Let us pray for Holy Spirit to help us to discern if the G12 movement be biblical or a movement filled with false teachings.
Also, Jesus taught us to love thy neighbour as thyself. Lets not harbour thoughts of spiking each other's view point with malice, but rather with the understanding to share with your neighbour the Truth, because you wish to extend brother love to them. \
Let the Word of God be the reason behind your different positions and discern if the other party's position is true or false. Jesus said that seek and ask of him for wisdom and he will provide. (matthew 7:7)
I pray God help us in this times to reveal the Truth to us.
In Jesus Name I pray,
Amen .
i am from fcbc. what attracted me to the church in 1998 was its passion that everyone should grow to love God, love God's passion ie. that none should perish. And there is a 'culture' to pray, to trust God, to believe God has answers for people and people's life can be changed by God. That there is hope in God. i love this church for its strong belief that the church lies outside the walls of the church building, we bring the church to the people. We weep and celebrate with people outside the church. However, over the years, I am worried that the same strength has turned against us. Somehow my pastor, whom I respect and care for, felt a strong anxiety to grow the church, it has become his personal fight. Recently, I am seeing NLP at work in church. That if we vision it, it can happen.
There are many things that worry me...the way the bible is quoted to suit our goals (to grow the church and to implement man-made systems). Systems are needed to run the church, we have mision statements, core values and operational systems to guide the church. It is necessary but my church leaders now quote the bible (twist God's words) to support systems that man himself want to see done.
I am sad, a little confused and I am praying. I believe many in the church are God-fearing, God-loving leaders and members. I don't think arguing over 'theology' will help. We need to pray, we need to check our own hearts.
I have also seen christians arguing 'to death' theology. I think it does nothing to the spirit life of man. I have seen elderly Christians who heard the call to bring people to church and they went with eagerness and hope in God. Their lives are much more alive and real than arguing 'theology'.
FCBC is a wonderful church. We need to pray that God removes the burden of anxiety from our senior pastor and pastors. They love God. Yet, somehow, I have this strange sense they love their senior pastor too much. I wonder then, where is the honour to God. Where is the truth?
I love my church, FCBC
jn
So you mean that every local church should apply the G12 system. How about the people in the mountains, people that are not reached out?
Goodness, there is so much useful information above!
Hi I'm a member of a church that is just only moving into the G12 vision and I'm struggling with it as well.
I agree with many points raised by the above people from both sides of the discussion, and have been very much tempted to change church myself.
However there are certain points that I am not able to reconcile.
All of us admit that the conversion of one soul is the work of the Holy Spirit, as ONLY the Holy Spirit can convict a sinner's heart. WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's conviction, no amount of preaching nor persuasion can lead someone back to the Cross.
Having established that, how do we account for the explosion of growth in churches in Columbia, South Africa, and many other countries?
Since every soul saved IS the work of the Holy Spirit, is there not clearly something from God in this G12?
If it is truly as unbiblical as many claim, how do the results square with our belief?
I know that attempting to navigate the mind of God is nothing short of folly, but it leads me to wonder, why does God prosper such an "unbiblical tool"?
How does it yield such results if the Holy Spirit is NOT WORKING behind it?
I personally feel that the test is in fruitfulness. If this tool is really not of God, how is it that the churches using it are still growing, and rapidly? I'm still praying over this issue.
While it is true that many churches and fellow brothers and sisters in Christ have felt hurt by this vision and its implementation, I am more inclined to think that in MOST cases, it is due to the poor implementation by the leaders, which leads to much misunderstanding about G12 principles that Ps Cesar talks about.
I am still very torn between accepting or rejecting the G12 vision and am sincerely seeking the truth about it. In my case, I would very much like to REJECT the vision as unbiblical, but at the same time I want to be very wary of missing out on God's call and rejecting it based on an unwillingness to step out of my own comfort zone and emotional responses.
I hope there's still someone who'll read this even though its such an old thread :x
Any response at all would be very very much appreciated.
I suggest that those critics do first what the g12 people do in bringing people to the Lord before they criticize. If you cannot present thousands of people from around the world who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ by your response against the g12 vision then stop criticizing. You criticize by what you believe its theological and right yet you cannot be guided by it to fulfill the great commission by your theology and education. Is it the work of the Holy Spirit to win souls? I guess you should review your bible not your theology. You rely so much in your theology that was downloaded from the thoughts of ancients theologians but not on the whole inspired scriptures so that if what you read is contrary to the ancient theology of old times you speculate them to fit your own feelings and mind. Join the g12 first and follow what it suggest before you criticize. I guest you have not learned to obey God but you rely only to what you have learned from your seminary.
is the same question my friend posted to me why does God bless mormon when we know it is not biblical teaching? i have no answer.
Hoped you are still following this thread or see the reply after so long, Scuter.
First of all, as you had mentioned earlier that the conversion of one’s soul is the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is clear that it is not so much about following the G12 Vision and never should it be. We also need to acknowledge that it is Christ Jesus who establishes His Church (Matt 16:18).
G12 Vision should not be the main focus for explosion growth in churches in Columbia, South Africa and other countries. God should be the focus for the growth. Exploding church growth can be persuasive and attractive at first glance, but it should not be used as a proof of divine approval or as a determining factor to prove the effectiveness of the G12 Vision/ principles/ methodologies/ model/ strategies.
Does church growth equate to success or fruitfulness? Is that the way how God would view success or fruitfulness? Another question to ask ourselves is do we need G12 Vision to fulfill the Great Commission?
While there is nothing wrong in coming up with tools, methods & strategies to aid us, but if they placed too much emphasis on them, then this is something we need to be concerned with. Many are drawn to something that had been proven and would very much want to replicate “success” in their churches. It is like chasing after the anointing rather than the One who anoints.
A good intention becomes a burden and added unnecessary pressure to the members of the church. I would like to highlight some good before touching on the not so good. Perhaps, member might feel recharged spiritually; have certain direction/purpose in life, improve in personal evangelism, etc. Now for the not so good, leaders or members might fall into guilt-trip or feel condemned because things are not moving according to plan i.e. church didn’t experience expected growth. This is likely to happen in a success-driven modus operandi church.
Yes, it is possible to implement poorly as with other methods, model, strategies, etc. The issue here is not so much on the implementation, but why builds on something in this case the G12 Vision that might be possibly unbiblical? Wouldn’t that be a foolish choice to begin with?
The decision to reject the G12 Vision or leave church is a difficult one, given the friends made in church or some other reasons. You are not rejecting God or His call for your life by rejecting them, but making an informed, wise decision. Hoped I addressed your concerns.
To Anonymous on 10/8/12 11:55 AM, Attempt to answer you and our brother Scuter briefly from a few angles.
Ephesians 6:12 stated that we are against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
'Principalities' could mean territory, authority, governmental rule in system or organisation. Incidentally G12 also means Government of 12. Not ruling out the possibility that some dark forces are at work behind these areas and cause things to flourish. This can be applied to aspect as well.
Yet another angle, giving the benefit of the doubt that God really gave the founder of G12 Vision this inspiration to grow the church and gave him the anointing and gifting to carry out what God had shown. Maybe along the way, ego, pride, arrogance settled. Remember the story of King Saul, the Spirit of the Lord departed from him (1 Samuel 16:14). Saul remained as king, his authority wasn't revoked. The founder might be operating under the anointing and gifting of being an eloquent, charismatic and visionary pastor, but the Spirit of the Lord could be there no more. Growth can still occur given the anointing and gifting. There are of course other factors such as faith of the people, prayer, etc for growth. God can still use the bad or good for His Purpose, explaining how God work might be futile.
There might not be other reasons, but at this point these should be enough to explain growth even if doctrines or practices might be unsound.
Hi wow thanks so much for replying!
I Have been checking back for responses! Really appreciate it!
Well, 5 months on from the date I posted the comment, I'm still in my church.
I understand the concern of being too focused on the tool instead of God and agree with you wholeheartedly, that explosion of churches should not be attributed to G12 vision per se, but God.
My contention was that perhaps God is indeed working through this vision.
I also agree that the secular view of "success" is very different from God's view. While we are concerned with observable, "beneficial" achievements, God looks beyond all these. However I can't ignore the repetition by Jesus about fruitfulness as well. In the sense of growing in numbers. He talked many times about the harvest, 30-fold, 60-fold, 100-fold, and so on.
So in a sense I feel that God IS concerned with numbers, although it NOT be purely a numbers game.
Can totally relate to your concern about the pressure and burden placed upon those in a G12 church.
However I've come to learn that in a sense, that is necessary if we want to see growth in our lives. Like the cultivation of spiritual disciplines.
My understanding is that one of the goals is just to make evangelism a spiritual discipline, so it becomes as natural as prayer and worship.
One of the most core and central values of G12 is devotion day and night. I can't say enough how much emphasis is placed upon our daily devotions as we are taught to seek God everyday and seek His voice everyday.
While I was very wary of this vision and all that it entailed, I also want to be very careful not to resist a new move from God, and have the spirit of the pharisees in the day. (They were so religious that it blinded them to the messiah standing right in front of them.)
I don't want to offend anyone here but just sharing the struggles and thoughts that went through my mind.
Having chosen to stick in my church the past months, I've been convicted that God wants me to stay where I am, and through the many struggles and pressures, I find I have grown so much more.
I absolutely believe the Great Commission can be fulfilled by other means. G12, as I understand it, does not claim a monopoly on the fulfillment. However, as I mentioned, as a disciple of Christ I want to be very careful in accepting, OR rejecting this. After all, I want to be honest with myself and acknowledge that it is human nature to resist change, anything that threatens to shake us out of our comfort zone, and G12 certainly does that.
Really want to thank you guys who've bothered to reply!!
May God bless and keep you wherever you are! (:
I agree that G12 is not the only way to fulfill the Great Commission. The emphasis should NOT be on the method but rather on our Lord. All glory should point to Him.
Though the goal of every G12 mbr is to form their 12 and thereafter 144, the desire to reach the lost and disciple should flow out of a heart yearning to love Man and love God. It is essential for those in the G12 vision to place Christ in the centre and guard their hearts fiercely against things lk pride, desire for power etc.
Personally, I do not believe that the number 12 wld limit others frm learning from a certain leader. There are other platforms to learn from; you don't have to limit urself to a G12 cell setting bt of course it's up to the leader to teach.
I disagree with the "Predestination" portion, but I agree with everything else. We are called to make disciples (in fact that passage in the original Greek is better translated as "Make Disciples ..." instead of adding "Go and ..."), but this G12 Vision is taking away from the Holy Spirit. This G12 Vision actually has a spirit associated with it. It is a virus, that takes over already alive churches, then replicates its DNA into those cell churches, turning them into a G12 church that is very destructive and self-seeking. My good pastor has been blinded, so has my dad, I don't know why. It is very, very dangerous. Gird and prepare yourselves, this is a massive spiritual fight.
1, of 2: I will put none of these DISEASES upon thee, for I am the Lord that HEALETH thee. Exodus 15:26
I will take SICKNESS away from the midst of thee. Exodus 23:25
Bless the Lord oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits; who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who HEALETH ALL thy DISEASES Psalms 103:2,3
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and HEALING all manner of SICKNESS, and all manner of DISEASE among the people. Matthew 4:23
It IS in fact Gods expressed will, that you be healed from sickness! Just so you're not confused here about Gods intent for you.
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils, and he cast out the spirits with his word, and HEALED all that were SICK that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet saying himself took our infirmities AND BARE OUR SICKNESSES. Matthew 8:16,17 Who? JESUS/YESHUA! BARE OUR SICKNESSES.
Your faith has made you well. -Jesus, Mark 10:52
But without faith it is impossible to please him, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, AND that HE is a REWARDER of them that DILIGENTLY seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
...
I joined FCBC this year and here are my findings
Positive:
A member brought me to Christ
I'm blessed with a wonderfully cell group (many are not)
Worship is inspiring
Sermons are passable at times
Negatives:
The nepotism is out of control
Having an kid as senior pastor who is inexperienced in life, marraige, kids and indepth understanding of scripture
Having a female senior pastor is doctrinally questionable if not outrageous
Following Benny Hinn's friend Cesar Castellanos who professes that God provides him with new revelation on a continual G12 show me the money bases and finally for now
It pains me to say this, so I will be as polite as possible
LK and his wife dress like they are walking around Geyland at night not looking for food
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