A Theological Response to FCBC and its G12 Model
This article is written in response to the G12 model of Faith Community Baptist Church (FCBC), Singapore. The written statements of the church are taken from its official G12 booklet and could be found at www.fcbc.org.sg.
FCBC:
God made a covenant with Abraham to increase his numbers so that he could be a father of many nations (see Gen 17:2-4). This Abrahamic covenant is still relevant to us as a church of Jesus Christ (see Gal 3:6-9). We are called to “father the nations”.
Response:
FCBC has taken the Abrahamic Covenant out of context. While it is true that God made Abraham “the father of many nations” (Genesis 17:4), it does not directly apply to Abraham’s descendants. “You will be the father of many nations” is a divine promise that God specifically gave to Abraham alone; it is not a commandment to be passed down to his descendants. If one reads the Abrahamic Covenant carefully, Abraham’s descendants, whether physical or spiritual, were not called to be “fathers of many nations.”
In Matthew 29:19-20, Jesus gave the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations." The original Greek word for “make disciples” is "mathēteuō," which is to "to follow his precepts and instructions, or to teach, instruct." In the context of the Abrahamic Covenant, the word "father" does not mean, in the English sense, to disciple. The Hebrew meaning for "father" is "the head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan." Abraham was not asked by God at any time to fulfill the divine promise by preaching to the surrounding nations.
In Galatians 3:6-9, the Word of God talks about the Christians being the "children of Abraham" and that "all nations will be blessed through" Abraham. If we take into account Genesis 26:4, the reason why all nations will be blessed is because of Jesus Christ, who is the "offspring" of Abraham. This Scriptural passage says nothing about the Christians becoming "fathers of many nations."
Therefore, as we can see, the meanings of the Hebrew word for "father" and the Greek word for "make disciples" are completely different. "Father of all nations" does not mean "father the nations."
FCBC:
The Government of 12 (G12) Vision is essentially this – to make each of us in FCBC a father of multitudes. The strategy to achieve this is To Win, To Consolidate, To Disciple and To Send.
Response:
There are no promises found in the Bible that indicate each Christian is to be a "father of multitudes." This false teaching totally ignore the sovereignty of God in the work of salvation. Only God knows who are His elect and we could not possibly know how many people would be saved. We are called to preach the gospel, not to convert people (i.e. to "win") who are spiritually dead. Let's leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit.
FCBC:
The basis for the number 12 is the example of Jesus and his 12 disciples. He chose 12 to be his helpers in ministering to the masses (see Matt 9:35-10:1). He stayed with them continually, hence, there is a permanence of relationship. He imparted himself and modelled his life for them to follow so that in turn they were able to lead and disciple others.
Interestingly, after the death of Judas, the 11 disciples filled the position of the 12th disciple in the person of Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Only then, did the Holy Spirit descend and empower them.
Response:
Does the New Testament instruct the Christians to pattern the government of the church on the number twelve? When the Apostle Paul preached to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2) and adopted Timothy as his son, did he use the number twelve to guide his actions in his ministry? In fact, there are no instructions from Jesus or the apostles to use the number twelve as a guide to the organizational structure of the church.
Furthermore, the filling of the position of the 12th apostle was a unique event. It was to fulfill the prophecy in the book of Psalms (Acts 1:20). And there is no indication from the Scriptures that the apostolic position has to be filled before the Pentecost. In Acts 1:4, Jesus simply said: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."
By trying to show a relation between the filling of the 12th position and the Pentecost, FCBC undermines the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and implies that He can be manipulated by a "magic" number. This false teaching reduces the historic Pentecost into a paganistic ritual where the number of apostles is viewed as essential for the Holy Spirit's arrival.
FCBC:
This is a patriarchal system of lineage, with everyone tracing their roots back to Senior Pastor.
Response:
This is clearly unscriptural. Our root is in Christ, not the pastor or the pope. For it is written: "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11) The New Testament warns us against following men. In 1 Corinthians 3:4, it is written: "For when one says, 'I follow Paul,' and another, 'I follow Apollos,' are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task."
This system of church government creates an unnecessary deep level of bureaucracy among Christians. And not only that, it is likely to foster a sense of power and self-importance among the top-level leaders of the church. It seems that the G12 model is a throwback to the Roman Catholic Church's style of government where the popes and cardinals are highly regarded as powerful spiritual men who are inaccessible to the multitudes.
FCBC:
We must recognise the urgency of winning people to Christ, as we discover that the Christian life is not a breeze but a battle. We are all engaged in a war to plunder hell and populate heaven.
Response:
FCBC totally ignored the Biblical doctrine of predestination. It is not by our will that the unbelievers will be saved, but it is by God's will. For it is written: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:16) The elect are already chosen. For it is written: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Ephesians 1:4) By saying that we are to "plunder hell and populate heaven," it is attributing the work of salvation to our wills, not God's sovereign will. This false teaching takes the glory away from God that He totally deserves.
FCBC:
God made a covenant with Abraham to increase his numbers so that he could be a father of many nations (see Gen 17:2-4). This Abrahamic covenant is still relevant to us as a church of Jesus Christ (see Gal 3:6-9). We are called to “father the nations”.
Response:
FCBC has taken the Abrahamic Covenant out of context. While it is true that God made Abraham “the father of many nations” (Genesis 17:4), it does not directly apply to Abraham’s descendants. “You will be the father of many nations” is a divine promise that God specifically gave to Abraham alone; it is not a commandment to be passed down to his descendants. If one reads the Abrahamic Covenant carefully, Abraham’s descendants, whether physical or spiritual, were not called to be “fathers of many nations.”
In Matthew 29:19-20, Jesus gave the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations." The original Greek word for “make disciples” is "mathēteuō," which is to "to follow his precepts and instructions, or to teach, instruct." In the context of the Abrahamic Covenant, the word "father" does not mean, in the English sense, to disciple. The Hebrew meaning for "father" is "the head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan." Abraham was not asked by God at any time to fulfill the divine promise by preaching to the surrounding nations.
In Galatians 3:6-9, the Word of God talks about the Christians being the "children of Abraham" and that "all nations will be blessed through" Abraham. If we take into account Genesis 26:4, the reason why all nations will be blessed is because of Jesus Christ, who is the "offspring" of Abraham. This Scriptural passage says nothing about the Christians becoming "fathers of many nations."
Therefore, as we can see, the meanings of the Hebrew word for "father" and the Greek word for "make disciples" are completely different. "Father of all nations" does not mean "father the nations."
FCBC:
The Government of 12 (G12) Vision is essentially this – to make each of us in FCBC a father of multitudes. The strategy to achieve this is To Win, To Consolidate, To Disciple and To Send.
Response:
There are no promises found in the Bible that indicate each Christian is to be a "father of multitudes." This false teaching totally ignore the sovereignty of God in the work of salvation. Only God knows who are His elect and we could not possibly know how many people would be saved. We are called to preach the gospel, not to convert people (i.e. to "win") who are spiritually dead. Let's leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit.
FCBC:
The basis for the number 12 is the example of Jesus and his 12 disciples. He chose 12 to be his helpers in ministering to the masses (see Matt 9:35-10:1). He stayed with them continually, hence, there is a permanence of relationship. He imparted himself and modelled his life for them to follow so that in turn they were able to lead and disciple others.
Interestingly, after the death of Judas, the 11 disciples filled the position of the 12th disciple in the person of Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Only then, did the Holy Spirit descend and empower them.
Response:
Does the New Testament instruct the Christians to pattern the government of the church on the number twelve? When the Apostle Paul preached to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:2) and adopted Timothy as his son, did he use the number twelve to guide his actions in his ministry? In fact, there are no instructions from Jesus or the apostles to use the number twelve as a guide to the organizational structure of the church.
Furthermore, the filling of the position of the 12th apostle was a unique event. It was to fulfill the prophecy in the book of Psalms (Acts 1:20). And there is no indication from the Scriptures that the apostolic position has to be filled before the Pentecost. In Acts 1:4, Jesus simply said: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."
By trying to show a relation between the filling of the 12th position and the Pentecost, FCBC undermines the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit and implies that He can be manipulated by a "magic" number. This false teaching reduces the historic Pentecost into a paganistic ritual where the number of apostles is viewed as essential for the Holy Spirit's arrival.
FCBC:
This is a patriarchal system of lineage, with everyone tracing their roots back to Senior Pastor.
Response:
This is clearly unscriptural. Our root is in Christ, not the pastor or the pope. For it is written: "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11) The New Testament warns us against following men. In 1 Corinthians 3:4, it is written: "For when one says, 'I follow Paul,' and another, 'I follow Apollos,' are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task."
This system of church government creates an unnecessary deep level of bureaucracy among Christians. And not only that, it is likely to foster a sense of power and self-importance among the top-level leaders of the church. It seems that the G12 model is a throwback to the Roman Catholic Church's style of government where the popes and cardinals are highly regarded as powerful spiritual men who are inaccessible to the multitudes.
FCBC:
We must recognise the urgency of winning people to Christ, as we discover that the Christian life is not a breeze but a battle. We are all engaged in a war to plunder hell and populate heaven.
Response:
FCBC totally ignored the Biblical doctrine of predestination. It is not by our will that the unbelievers will be saved, but it is by God's will. For it is written: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:16) The elect are already chosen. For it is written: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Ephesians 1:4) By saying that we are to "plunder hell and populate heaven," it is attributing the work of salvation to our wills, not God's sovereign will. This false teaching takes the glory away from God that He totally deserves.
posted by beowulf at 10:52 AM
26 Comments:
not a mbr of fcbc.. just happened to chance upon ur blog.. i feel that their vision, is what fcbc hope to achieve. it doesn't mean that it has to be based on a bible promise? G12 is a "movement", i don't know what u call that cos i'm not frm that church or maybe a strategy for them to disciple their members. nothing unscriptural about that.
personally i feel that when a church starts embarking on 'movements' that are not scripture-based, the church is embarking upon a path divergent from the Word and i am not comfortable with that at all. if a church is not about the promises of God and becomes some sort of amorphous independent organ then when is a church a church, and when is it a meeting of lots of people who sing, clap and feel happy about themselves?
but you're picking out statements from a whole para of stuff and just pin pointing it. maybe should look at the whole thing?
I did read the whole thing. I believe those statements are pretty clear enough to be fully comprehended. In addition, there are other general criticisms of G12 on the Internet. Perhaps you could have a look at FCBC's G12 model at its website and judge for yourself whether the points I have raised are correct.
i do think that our sole purpose for being saved is to "go to all nations and preach the gospel". i dont see a big difference btw preaching the gospel and winning souls. is there a big difference btw marketing and selling? (just to quote a worldly example)
Actually, the reason is a bit more complicated than that. The reason we are saved is to glorify God. There is a theological term called the Covenant of Redemption. Before the creation of the world, God the Father entered into an eternal covenant with God the Son, Jesus Christ. Under its terms, the Son voluntarily become subordinate to the Father. The Father gave the elect to the Son who in turn is obliged to pay in full by dying on the cross.
Therefore, for the Covenant of Redemption to be unbroken, we have to be saved. Thus, our salvation is for the glory of God. Our salvation is the work of God. Our faith is from God. The reason we choose to believe is because God chose us first. Salvation is not 50% God's work and 50% Man's faith. Salvation is not even 99% God's work and 1% Man's faith. Salvation is 100% God's work.
As you can see, this boils down to the doctrine of predestination. God has already chosen His elect. Those that He chooses to be saved will be saved. Those that He did not choose will be damned. God also ordained prayer and evangelism to reach the lost.
With this in mind, we are simply God's instruments in His overall plan of salvation for the elect. Our jobs are not to win souls. It is the Holy Spirit who actually regenerate the sinful natures of the non-believing elect when the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached to them. Our jobs are to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone.
Let me put it in another way, when you go to Heaven and some of your friends go to Hell even though you preached the gospel to them, it is not your fault. God has already predestined His elect from the beginning and will not let any of His elect go to Hell. The reason some did not believe till the day they die is because they are not predestined to salvation.
If someone is saved because you preached the gospel to him/her, you can't say to yourself, "Oh... it is because of my oratory skills or my good charms. That's why the person is saved." All glory must go to God alone.
With the doctrine of predestination in mind, we would not know exactly how many souls will be saved through our preaching. It might be less than 12, or it could be hundreds of thousands. Only God knows since He ordained evangelism. As we do not know who are the elect, our job is simply to preach to as many people as we can. Maybe it is ordained by God that a particular individual needs 10 evangelists to preach to him and you are one of the chosen 10.
So the number of souls saved are not the issue here. Nobody except God knows the actual number. If you do not know of anyone who is saved under your preaching, don't worry about it. Let God handle the conversion stuff. You just concentrate on your responsibility to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ and leave the rest up to God.
May I clarify that while your point of view puts it to you that FCBC has quoted the Abrahamic Covenant out of context (i.e. that the promise to father the nations is for Abraham alone and no one else), the truth isn’t as such.
You know the Great Commission too – to make disciples of all nations. But what does that mean? Does it not mean we should go convert the world? But is conversion enough? Is God’s idea of the Great Commission mere conversion profusely? No, I believe not. As a strong Christian I believe you are, you should know that God’s idea of the Body of Christ (the Church, that is) is one that’s like a community – a family. And FCBC has recognized that. And since every family needs a head – just like the body of Christ has Jesus as its head – the G12 movement is shaped with a “head” leading 12 sons/daughters. It may sound awkward at first, but once you understand the responsibility that this brings about to the ‘head’, you’ll get the picture – this is a responsibility that lasts for a lifetime – there will be responsibility and excellent coverage. That is why the word “Father” (head, like you have shown) have been incorporated into the movement and hence, the Abrahamic Covenant to reinforce the idea and show the Bibilicality of this movement – for what God gave to Abraham, He gives to us too – I mean, would you deny the fact that FCBC “fathering” the nations is pleasing to God?
You accused the FCBC G12 movement as “false teaching”. Do you know what this is tantamount to? Blasphemy! I mean, think about this for a moment – is the G12 movement in any way “moving left or right” from the Bible? Is not the G12 movement FULFILING the Great Commission (Albeit in ways that many conservatives may find a little too aggressive? But hello? It’s the Devil whom we’re against!)? “False teaching”? I beg your pardon.
You are so contradicting. You said we are told to “preach” but NOT “convert”. What, then, do you preach for? NOT to convert?
If we are, like you said, to “leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit”, then WHY did Jesus send the disciples to go cnonvert? Then why did Paul travel everywhere around the then known world risking his life in order to convert? Are they all “leaving” the job to the Holy Spirit? Now, do not get me wrong – the Holy Spirirt is indispensible when it comes to conversion, but hey, it’s a 100% man’s effort and 100% God’s. We are, by no means, told to sit back and merely “preach” and leave everything else to the Holy Spirirt. We are told to PLUNDER HELL TO POPULATE HEAVEN! Plunder, if you know, is vigorous and violent.
The number 12 is not a die-die-must-have thing, if you know the G12 movement truly. It’s a TRADITION. There’s a distinct difference between a tradition and a ritual – one’s for the mere number simply for the sake of the number (puns intended but by no means a devine order) while the other’s something that’s a MUST. The number 12 in the G12 movement is the former.
By no means is FCBC taking the number 12 as a “magic” number – it is merely serving as a goal for the “heads” to achieve (afterall, we all want to convert more for God and be fruitful for Him) and a number for us to “know when to stop”. Like I said, not a must but as a guide. I mean, if there’s not 12, people may choose to stop at 3 or NOT stop at 50. Not that that is wrong, but it’s for the standardisation and neatness. Note that not every “head” has 12 yet. They are just taking the step of faith to believe that God will give them 12 people to “father” and 12 being the number they’ve chosen to believe in God for.
And no, the number 12 is NOT essential (like you lied) for the Holy Spirit to arrive. The Holy Spirit is ALREADY in FCBC. There is no need for the formation of some 12-work to get “more” of the Spirit – just to achieve more.
Tracing back out roots to the Senior Pastor is wrong? Then tell me where you trace your Earthly linage to? NOT China, but to Jesus? What is wrong with this style of government? Unlike the catholic system where everyone comes back to the Pope ultimately, the G12 system is a system of 12s where every 12 people have one head – just like the family (which is a system that God created). And unlike the Catholics, FCBC members are told to TRY everything said – they do not trust the Senior Pastor blindly like Catholics do the Pope. The Senior Pastor is merely there to act as a leader – like institution requires. Christ is still the head of this household. FCBC is not anti-minion.
No one feels “superior” to another. The whole of FCBC is one body – the eye is not inferior to the leg just like the senior pastor is not superior to the least member of the church in the eyes of God. This is just your human thinking and assumptions in action. “Sense of power and self-importance” stems from pride – is that so strong in your life that that is what comes to your mind immediately at the mention of the G12 movement?
“Doctrine of predestination”! Ahah! A Calvinist afterall! May I point out that the Doctrine is still one of the most strongly debated issues in Christian theology and no denomination has ever come up with a fool-proof answer to whether it’s right or wrong yet. It’s still being disputed.
I, personally, do NOT believe in full predestination. Yes, God already knows what’s up for the entire time of our lives, but Salvation is STILL a choice for everyone. God is not an unjust God – he does NOT deny anyone (not a single person) eternal life simply by the idea of “predestination”. It is merely FOOLISH and condemnable a human idea that “who should be saved will be saved anyway”. Selfish and totally detached from the heart of God.
See now why FCBC ignores the idea (NOT doctrine - yet) of predestination? Because it’s not completely right – God knows, but we still have a choice. We’re not robots merely acting out his script.
God already knows – that’s because He’s not bound by time! It’s too vast for our puny minds to get this but in short, Heaven has no time (He created time) so he knows everything that has happened and will happen – but what will happen and has happened were ALL choices made by men! God did not manipulate anyone into doing anything at all.
Our plundering, by the way, would be futile if not for God – FCBC recognizes that Salvation comes from God and God decides – but we MUST do our part too – or are you telling us that we should have nothing to do on earth but to “preach” and not care about whether people get converted because “no matter how well we preach or what we do, it’s useless since the Holy Spirit will be doing His job regardless of what I do anyway”?
I'm beginning to seriously doubt your knowledge of the Bible.
Jesus said "whoever is not against us is for us".
Is TCC, FCBC, CHC AGAINST Jesus in any way? The only thing these churches are doing against (with regards to you) is going against the WRONG Calvinist teaching of predestination.
Why are you so fluffed up by TCC, FCBC and CHC? Because they're far bigger, popular and spirit-filled than your Calvinist churches?
The predestination issue is a sensitive one for many of us because it involves those who are close to us. I would know, having met with apathy and reluctance from my very best friends with regards to the faith.
But for you to say that God has perfect knowledge of the choice we will make does not negate the fact that we must take responsibility for the choices we make. It is a choice insofar as we are mortals and make mortal choices. Because we exist as mortals we can never judge events and occurrences from an immortal vantage point. Hence it is pointless for us to say that we don't have to feel guilty if we don't give our all to preaching the Gospel -- that would only make it foreseen by God that we would not live up to our mission. One cannot divorce the fate of non-Christian souls from one's efforts to spread the Word on the basis of God's perfect knowledge, as just because God knows something will or will not happen does not mean that we have no responsibility or accountability on that score. God knew we would sin, but that does not exonerate us from it. Similarly God may know if we choose to believe in Him or not from the start of time, but that does not excuse us from -not- believing, or -not- spreading the faith as Christians. Also if we do live up to the mission and spread the Gospel, we might be termed "good and faithful servants" (Matt 5:21) but I agree with Beowulf that the glory must go back to God. We may use our abilities and spiritual gifts to effectively spread the Word -- charisma, confidence -- but the sovereignty of God as our Creator and hence the Giver of our gifts must always be made apparent.
So I guess in essence, I disagree with the attitude which Beowulf seems to have, that "God already predestined the elect so we don't have to feel guilty if that person doesn't believe" because that leads to an inclination to give less than 100% -- the first part is true, but the second part not necessarily. And in the same way that non-believers are not exonerated by virtue of predestination, neither should believers be exonerated of the responsibility to preach the faith. But I agree that no matter how many people we are able to convince of God's truth, all glory should go to God -- and I don't always see this accurately reflected in these mega churches. Sorry if this is rambly and unfocused. 2.20 am lar.
To Gayle:
No, I did not imply that "believers be exonerated of the responsibility to preach the faith." Neither did I imply "we don't give our all to preaching the Gospel."
God predestined the elect and God also predestined evangelism. That means He predestined every one of us to preach the gospel to non-believers.
We are to evangelise because it is commanded in the Bible to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are the Holy Spirit's instruments in spreading the gospel. Note that the Holy Spirit use us, not we use the Holy Spirit.
And you have misunderstood how the Reformed doctrine of predestination works. The choice we make to believe in the gospel is determined by God. Our faith (choice) is a gift from God. We are absolutely incapable of seeking God in the first place. The Holy Spirit has to change our sinful nature in order for us to make us believe.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved." (Ephesians 2:1-5)
A response to Yaevlejunce can be found here.
Hi,
I don't want to play the advocate here but you have brought up "predestination". If this is "THE" main theory, how does it measure up with statements like John 3:16?
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
This verse deals with two Biblical truths in the doctrine of predestination; limited atonement and irresistible grace.
When one says God loved the world, does the word "world" means every person on earth? Notice the verse that follows after John 3:16, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:17)
If the word "world" means every person, then according to John 3:17 everyone will eventually be saved. Obviously, this universalistic teaching is at odds with Biblical Christianity.
Here is a quote from A. W. Pink, a Reformed theologian:
"But the objector comes back to John 3:16 and says, 'World means world.' True, but we have shown that 'the world' does not mean the whole human family. The fact is that 'the world' is used in a general way. When the brethren of Christ said 'Show thyself to the world' (John 7:4), did they mean 'Shew Thyself to all mankind'? When the Pharisees said 'Behold, the world is gone after Him' (John 12:19), did they mean that 'all the human family' were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, 'Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world' (Rom. 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on earth? When Rev. 13:3 informs us that 'all the world wondered after the beast', are we to understand that there will be no exceptions? These, and other passages which might be quoted, show that the term 'the world' often has a relative rather than an absolute force."
In the doctrine of irresistible grace, faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). The phrase "whoever believes in him" does not in any way contradict this Biblical truth. To put it in another way, John 3:16 states that Jesus Christ died for the elect who are given the gift of faith through God's grace.
The verse John 3:16 cannot be read on its own, but should be read according to its entire context. You must also consider the other verses found in the Gospel of John where it is shown God sovereignly predestined His elect.
1. "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." (John 1:13)
2. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)
3. "He went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.'" (John 6:65)
4. "He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (John 8:47)
5. "... The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep." (John 10:25-26)
6. "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." (John 15:16)
7. "... As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world ..." (John 15:19)
You seem quite free to think thru whether this vision or tt vision is biblical or not... Why dun you spend this time reaching to the lost??? Have you lost your compassion for the lost??? Is your Christian life fruitful???
A fruitful Christian life is one that tries to glorify God. And yes, I do devote my efforts to preaching the gospel, as well as refuting false teachings, which is commanded in the Bible.
Responding to "You are quite free said..." (27/12/05 10:40 PM), though I do not know beowulf,I feel that your comment has been unfair.
I too have this (strange) habit of
thinking thru whether vision of churches or chrsitian org is biblical or not... Not that I'm very clever, or very biblical, or too free... But, these visions do serve as good material for personal bible study!! When one do not know what biblie topic to study for a particular day, these G12, & etc movements can become an interesting area of study.Where areas of teachings that seems unbiblical, I just point them out to friends, on blog...By doing this, I hope that others help me clarify my doubts on these issues. Sadly, very often, christians of these movements/ churches which I ask questions become angry/ agitated. I do not get to clarify my doubts, but get "lablelled" as not understanding the bible, not loving God, unloving, trying to divide the church & many more.... It seems strange to me, that if those "reprimand" me are so biblical,so christ-like, they should have the humility to talk, to defend their positions, & not "label" people.
Discipleship, evangelism & personal growth develop together.
I see no crash. We can reach the lost, Have compassion for the lost, & yet stillbe concerned about the develpment in the church at large.How can this form of Christian life be unfruitful???
I do STRONGLY AGREE with yaevlejunce. I find that FCBC is a church that definitely believes in the Word of God. Moreover, the teachings of Apostle Lawrence Khong are definitely scriptural.
I personally do not agree with predestination. Does that mean that preaching to a devout Buddhist once, and when he doesnt get saved, we leave him to his fate, and not continuously reach out TILL his salvation? I believe Ezekiel 3:18 said that ''when i say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die', and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS BLOOD''. Do you see that? We are SUPPOSED to work in evangelism to see the salvations of many, if not WE are accountable before who? GOD!!. So its not right to say that His Elect will go to Heaven, the rest to Hell, condemned. The Great Commission states that we sholu ''go forth and make disciples of ALL Nations..'' and these are words from the mouth of Lord Jesus Christ Himself!! Does it mean only some people from USA will be saved? NO!! EVERYBODY MUST BE SAVED!!!!! We should continue to evangelise to see the WHole World won for Christ. And who says the megachurches are not focused on the Holy Spirit? Do you know that in FCBC, the church focuses on worshippping the Holy Spirit, in CHC prayer always begans in worshipping in Tongues...So beowulf...please stop decieving others, especially if you have not even visited these churches...
I know it is a bit out since anyone commented on this blog but as I was looking for infomration about g12 it came up so I wanted to comment.
All those who are attacking the orignal post, seem to be in defense mode, and for good reason. The posting are acurate to everything I have read and heard and seen of the G12 movement.
People accusing the poster of not knowing the bible, or of G12 are attacking the person not the facts.
Just a few things. G12 has slipped into so many churches because it does look like a biblical sound movement that could only be a benefit to church growth. But when you look at what really happens at those who are "true" g12, you see what it is all based on, which is not biblical.
A structure that in the end all looks to one man, Cesar C. A man that supposedly had a vision where he says that g12 is the ONLY way of running the Christian church. Meaning that all other ways are useless. They have also come out against anyone who alters G12 at all, saying it will fail unless you do it exactly the way Cesar C. says, so P12 and others using encounters and G12 items, according to G12 are bound to fail and are not doing what they need to do for God.
You can go onto the bulletin boards and see the damage of G12 churches, the leadership structure, the forceful tactics, intimidation and guilt trips put on people for not being able to attend a meeting.
The fact is, as the original poster stated, that the bible does not say do groups of 12, follow Cesar C. There are no true examples of that in the bible, why not the number 7 or 40, they are also common numbers in the bible? You don't see Paul telling the church, get into your groups, go to your encounters? G12 says that these types of things are a neccesity.
The bible does not call everyone to be a leader, hence the reason the bible tells us we all have different gifts, we are all different pieces of the body. G12 preaches that EVERYONE needs to be a leader of 12, so says God, so says Cesar C.
In the end there isn't anything wrong with going out and sharing the gospel, duh, nor is there a problem with the basic idea of forming groups to have bible studies/teachings in the church.
But when presented in this way, the only way, built on false belief and exaltation of a man, and false doctrine, the church should not follow it. There is a big difference in, lets try this, and we have to do it because God told me so.
Churches have grown in number, but based on false doctrine and practices, so where does that leave them?
G12 is bad for the Christian church.
I think it's very ungracious to accuse each other of "lying" here. If all of you are Christians who truly follow after Christ's example, you all should stop using such harsh words and tones against one other. Can't you all see that you are all talking about the same thing, the same God, the same Bible? The difference is a matter of emphasis, and you're all just creating a storm out of a teacup. Tell you all something hor, if you go on like this, no one would want to be a Christian --- to much trouble --- "farn nao"
Let me remind ourselves who are believers not to engage in strife. Whatever God has spoken to Pastor Khong is for him to do. Who are we to judge? God did not speak to us about G12. So, let's stop all this bickering and instead pray for FCBC to be a success in whatever God has called this church to be. I pray for God's abundant blessings on FCBC and Pastor Khong.
Brothers you have harsh comment about the Catholic faith. If you know history well enough you should be thankful that the Catholics compiled the Bible for us all. If you have theological questions regarding Catholicism converse with some Catholic theologian for a fair exchange of the knowledge of God and the Bible. God gave us free will and with this we can choose to cooperate or not to cooperate with his grace. God seeing in the future those who will not cooperate with his saving Grace is not responsible for their damnation. Seeing or knowing those who will not cooperate and will be damned does not equate to God's predestining some of us into hell.
Well Yaevlejunce said most of what I would say...you need to go and check out the Pastor Casear Castinolles(Bogato,Columbia)because he first was given this vision from God and their website and information may be more clear to you then the FCBC.I am a member of a G12 church and have met Pastor Ceasear.Though the g12 way may seem strange to you it is not your right to critize/judge..that is God's job,our churches and people aren't perfect but we do our best to do the will of God.God didn't leave us on earth after we accepted Christ just to walk around blinded to the hurting people around us,we are to take what God has given us and done for us and in turn help someone else and show thwm the way to Christ.Yes their salvation can only come by the work of the Holy Spirit,but if we don't tell them there is salvation how will they know?When there are many in church it is hard for the pastor to have to time to help them all.Our leaders are ther to guide us and the seek God for consoule and to help us and sometimes they seek our pastors if need be,without my leader I would be lost,I would not have anyone to help me when I am struggling in life or in my walk with Christ,yes I go to God for guidence but we all need a support system.I grew up in church and was saved as a young person but lost my way because I did not have anyone to show me how to read and study my Bible,pray or war against the devil whose main purpose is to steal kill and destry us.Many people have been save from this "movement" as you call it, and many have had life changing experince in which would not have happened other wise,believe me I would be dead or on living on the streets,lost my children ,an addict and in destrutive or immoral realtionships if not for the g12 church and the family I have found there.I pray God shows you this g12 vision was in deed from Him.The Bible say that God desires that none shall perish,through the g12 vision God's word is being spread througghtout the world so that all the worl may have a chance to know God and have a chance to choose salvation through Christ.Yes God already knows those who will chose Him but He made man with free will and we chose Him or something or some else.It is our purpsoe to tell others about His salvation through Christ so they have that chance to chose salvation.
This seams to me as a case of different people facing the same command but accusing each other of using different methods. If everyone on earth was the same, we would all use the same method to reach them.
If G12 is what God gives you and your people become disciples, God will be the judge of the fruit. We all have different areas of the world to reach.
In my opinion, G12 (like any other vision/ movement) is a tool. Let those who embrace it, use it. Where others have another tool, let them use it. At the end, God gets the glory for a tool properly used. Any tool that is not of God will not stand.
For example, if God gives me a ship, and gives my friend a bike, it would be silly for me to carry my ship to reach the people in the mountains or for him to try ride on the oceans to the islands. I should focus on the seas/ islands and encourage my friend on the bike to get the people in the mountains. My biking friend would have & give advice backed by his experience biking and I based on my experience sailing. We will find wrong areas in each others method/ tool but that doesnt discount them. Question then is whether disciples being made? Not the tool used!
This, in my opinion, is our problem here. Search and you will find pros and cons of G12 (like every human endeavor before and after it) but we should all seek to please and glorify God. Whichever tool we have, lets go around the world and ensure we have fruit that remains/ disciples/ converts (whichever terminology is preferable).
Why do you guys want to criticise and hurt the body of Christ in FCBC? Think about it... Beowulf, is it for you to judge? FCBC is using the G12 to fufill the Great Commission, which is to win more people to the Lord. Remember, judge not & you'll not be judged. If this is God's Will for FCBC to use the G12 Vision, it will not fail because God's hand is with them. In fact, you may be judged for criticising & attacking the very work of God. God Bless You
I fully agree with you, Anonymous.
Anyway, I would encourage beowulf and all who strongly felt there is something wrong with the church to GO VISIT the church, interact with the members, and know for yourself whether they really love the Lord, Jesus Christ, and that they are moving passionately for the Lord and His glory or for their Senior Pastor.
Why interpret subjectively from one-page in a web-site? Life is not found in that page.
In His Service,
Another Anonymously His
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