Monday, August 15, 2005

A Response to Yaevlejunce Concerning the G12 Model

This is in response to the blogger, Yaevlejunce, with regard to his comments on the article "A Theological Response to FCBC and its G12 Model"

Yaevlejunce:
May I clarify that while your point of view puts it to you that FCBC has quoted the Abrahamic Covenant out of context (i.e. that the promise to father the nations is for Abraham alone and no one else), the truth isn’t as such.

Response:
So maybe you would like to prove the “truth” by reasoning from the Bible.

Yaevlejunce:
You know the Great Commission too – to make disciples of all nations. But what does that mean? Does it not mean we should go convert the world? But is conversion enough?

Response:
We are asked to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, not to convert the world (Matthew 28:19-20). The dictionary definition of “convert” must be used in this sense: “To change (something) into another form, substance, state, or product; transform: convert water into ice.” No unregenerate person can seek after God (Romans 3:11). Only the Holy Spirit can convert those who are spiritually dead to become spiritually alive in Jesus Christ.

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.” (Ephesians 2:1-5)

Yaevlejunce:

Is God’s idea of the Great Commission mere conversion profusely? No, I believe not. As a strong Christian I believe you are, you should know that God’s idea of the Body of Christ (the Church, that is) is one that’s like a community – a family. And FCBC has recognized that. And since every family needs a head – just like the body of Christ has Jesus as its head – the G12 movement is shaped with a “head” leading 12 sons/daughters. It may sound awkward at first, but once you understand the responsibility that this brings about to the ‘head’, you’ll get the picture – this is a responsibility that lasts for a lifetime – there will be responsibility and excellent coverage. That is why the word “Father” (head, like you have shown) have been incorporated into the movement and hence, the Abrahamic Covenant to reinforce the idea and show the Bibilicality of this movement – for what God gave to Abraham, He gives to us too – I mean, would you deny the fact that FCBC “fathering” the nations is pleasing to God?


Response:

I have already shown in this article that the Abrahamic Covenant is distorted out of context. Even the Devil used the Scriptures to justify certain actions (Luke 4:1-13). Manipulating the Word of God out of context does not make a movement Biblical. Therefore, it is important that you render a Scriptural passage according to its actual context. For it is written: “He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)

There is no indication from the Bible that we are to create many “heads” or create many different layers of authority. In fact, the opposite is true. For it is written: “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

The Christians in Corinth made the mistake of following men by creating artificial divisions within the church. 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 states: “"What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?"” As the Apostle Paul shown quite clearly, we are not to follow men, but to follow Christ.

The Apostle Peter also have this to say, “Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5:2-3)

The Greek word for “lording it over” is katakurieuo, which means: “1) to bring under one’s power, to subject one’s self, to subdue, master 2) to hold in subjection, to be master of, exercise lordship over.” Certainly the doctrine of fathering/mothering spiritual sons/daughters runs contrary to 1 Peter 5:2-3.

Yaevlejunce:
You accused the FCBC G12 movement as “false teaching”. Do you know what this is tantamount to? Blasphemy! I mean, think about this for a moment – is the G12 movement in any way “moving left or right” from the Bible? Is not the G12 movement FULFILING the Great Commission (Albeit in ways that many conservatives may find a little too aggressive? But hello? It’s the Devil whom we’re against!)? “False teaching”? I beg your pardon.


Response:
As I have shown from the above and my previous article, “A Theological Response to FCBC and its G12 Model,” the teachings of the G12 model run contrary to the teachings of the Bible. And blasphemy is an act committed against God, not against men. The Bible does contain many warnings against false teachers and prophets. We are to discern false teachings from the truth. Please refer to this article, “Biblical Warnings against False Teachings.”

Yaevlejunce:

You are so contradicting. You said we are told to “preach” but NOT “convert”. What, then, do you preach for? NOT to convert? If we are, like you said, to “leave the supernatural work of "winning souls" to the Holy Spirit”, then WHY did Jesus send the disciples to go cnonvert? Then why did Paul travel everywhere around the then known world risking his life in order to convert? Are they all “leaving” the job to the Holy Spirit? Now, do not get me wrong – the Holy Spirirt is indispensible when it comes to conversion, but hey, it’s a 100% man’s effort and 100% God’s. We are, by no means, told to sit back and merely “preach” and leave everything else to the Holy Spirirt. We are told to PLUNDER HELL TO POPULATE HEAVEN! Plunder, if you know, is vigorous and violent.


Response:

There is a fundamental difference between the words preaching and converting. We are God’s instruments in the Holy Spirit’s work of salvation. As instruments of the Holy Spirit, we are called to preach the gospel to the lost. We are called to be active in the mission field (Romans 10:14-15). However, the ability for the lost to believe in the gospel solely rests in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The act of conversion is by the Holy Spirit. For it is written: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) Grace is gift of God. Our faith is also a gift of God. You cannot claim that your faith is a result of your effort. All glory in the work of salvation must belong to God alone.

And God never tells us to “plunder hell to populate Heaven.” Maybe Lawrence Khong says so, but certainly not God through the Bible. As Acts 5:29 states: “We must obey God rather than men!”

Yaevlejunce:

The number 12 is not a die-die-must-have thing, if you know the G12 movement truly. It’s a TRADITION. There’s a distinct difference between a tradition and a ritual – one’s for the mere number simply for the sake of the number (puns intended but by no means a devine order) while the other’s something that’s a MUST. The number 12 in the G12 movement is the former.

Response:
The G12 movement is not merely tradition. FCBC intentionally used Bible verses to justify the G12 “tradition.” Unfortunately, these Bible verses are distorted out of context. In this regard, FCBC is no different from the Roman Catholic Church, who distorted the Bible to justify the Apostle Peter as the pope.

Yaevlejunce:
By no means is FCBC taking the number 12 as a “magic” number – it is merely serving as a goal for the “heads” to achieve (afterall, we all want to convert more for God and be fruitful for Him) and a number for us to “know when to stop”. Like I said, not a must but as a guide. I mean, if there’s not 12, people may choose to stop at 3 or NOT stop at 50. Not that that is wrong, but it’s for the standardisation and neatness. Note that not every “head” has 12 yet. They are just taking the step of faith to believe that God will give them 12 people to “father” and 12 being the number they’ve chosen to believe in God for.

Response:
And which part of the Bible tells us to “take the step of faith” that God will give each one of us “12 people to father”? It is clearly unscriptural to suggest that. Please recognize that evangelism and conversion of the lost are dependent on the sovereign will of God. Therefore, it is not up to us to decide on any number as a guide. By defining conversions as human “achievements,” you take the glory of the work of salvation away from God.

Yaevlejunce:

And no, the number 12 is NOT essential (like you lied) for the Holy Spirit to arrive. The Holy Spirit is ALREADY in FCBC. There is no need for the formation of some 12-work to get “more” of the Spirit – just to achieve more.

Response:
Please read my article carefully. I have quoted FCBC word for word with regard to Acts 1:20-26. FCBC is the one who brought up the Scriptural passage, not me. Let me quote FCBC’s words again: “Interestingly, after the death of Judas, the 11 disciples filled the position of the 12th disciple in the person of Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Only then, did the Holy Spirit descend and empower them.”

Yaevlejunce:
“Doctrine of predestination”! Ahah! A Calvinist afterall! May I point out that the Doctrine is still one of the most strongly debated issues in Christian theology and no denomination has ever come up with a fool-proof answer to whether it’s right or wrong yet. It’s still being disputed.

Response:

The Reformed doctrine of predestination has already been proven many times. I strongly suggest you widen your scope of reading.

Yaevlejunce:

I, personally, do NOT believe in full predestination. Yes, God already knows what’s up for the entire time of our lives, but Salvation is STILL a choice for everyone. God is not an unjust God – he does NOT deny anyone (not a single person) eternal life simply by the idea of “predestination”. It is merely FOOLISH and condemnable a human idea that “who should be saved will be saved anyway”. Selfish and totally detached from the heart of God.

Response:

Please read the Bible carefully. Romans 9:16 states: “It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.” We choose God because God chose us first. God has already determined His elect. Our choices are the results of God’s choices. For it is written: “For he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.” (Ephesians 1:4)


There are some whom God predestined to be saved, while the rest gets passed over. It is written: "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory." (Romans 9:21-23)

24 Comments:

Blogger Yaevlejunce said...

It's interesting how you quote me out of context while blatently accuse others of doing so too.

Irony galore.

15/8/05 4:47 PM  
Blogger Yaevlejunce said...

After reading, I've found countless flaws in your defence. I'm not going to point them out but I shall let the readers "discern" for themselves who is right and who, wrong. The one who advocates partial anti-Predestination (ie. that God knows BUT we still have a choice) or you, the Calvinist who goes "There is no choice. God has condemned the lost to hell even before He created Earth".

For in the end, the truth will prevail.

By the way, it's interesting to note that while you quoted my entire comment, you did NOT answer all my accusations against you. Why is that so? No answer to give me?

15/8/05 4:57 PM  
Blogger Yaevlejunce said...

By the way, I wrote a response to your lover, the Doctrine of Predestination.

Pardon my first paragraph. And the bad english and contentions too. I am but a novice compared to many...

It's at one of my blogs - http://l-editeur.blogspot.com/

15/8/05 5:00 PM  
Blogger beowulf said...

You have a wrong perception of Calvinism. The Calvinist believes that our choice to believe in the gospel is solely determined by God. Before salvation, we are unable to make that choice because we are 100% spiritually dead to sin. The Holy Spirit have to regenerate our sinful nature in order for us to choose God, bringing us to salvation.

And perhaps you might want to cite an example of your accusations?

15/8/05 5:10 PM  
Blogger Yaevlejunce said...

But I disagree with that. While God does, indeed, know what decisions we are going to make (since, like I explained, He is not bound by time), He intentionally has NO part at all in the making of the decision.

He is a just God - He will not condemn one man to eternal damnnation and another to eternal paradise. He gives ALL an equal chance.

That is unless, of course, you are going to tell me that the Calvinist Doctrine of Predestination states that God KNOWS, yet all men STILL have the choice.

One example (are you telling me you can't read my words?) is not enough, let me give you the whole list:

1. I asked you "Is conversion enough?". Yes, you may argue that conversion is not our purpose as "preaching" is. In that case, tell me the difference in the desired outcome of the 2.

2. I asked you "would you deny the fact that FCBC “fathering” the nations is pleasing to God?". Is FCBC not doing God's will by bringing the world back to the Lord?

3. I asked you "is the G12 movement in any way “moving left or right” from the Bible?" Is the G12 movement, in any way breaking any commandments set out by God or going against anything doctrinal?

4. I asked you "Is not the G12 movement FULFILING the Great Commission?" Is it not? Look at FCBC and CHC - the charismatic churches are doing in just 20 years in Singapore what the Calvinists have not done EVER. Who is doing the will of God? Is it not true that where the Spirit of God is is where His favour is? And is not where His favour is where there will be mighty harvests?

It is interesting to note that while you're full of scriptural quotations on how Salvation is by Grace and the work of the Spirit ALONE, you fail to note and have overlooked the quotes that state that Jesus said that the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. You are one of the missing worker. You, when told to go work in the fields of harvest, would say "No, The Holy Spirit Himself will do it". But you're wrong - the Holy Spirit will GUIDE you to do it - but you have to take that step yourself too.

When I said that we should "take the step of faith to trust God that He'll give us 12 to father", it is saying that we're having faith in the fact that He'll grant us favour when we choose to do what pleases Him. And is fathering the nations (and these 12) NOT pleasing Him? We are, afterall, not doing anything wrong, are we?

The scriptures again, you'd probably say. You're probably going to say that the Bible did not say "12", "father" and what nots. But God did not say "speak English" nor "type in blogs" nor "call yourself a Singaporean". But aren't you doing all these as well? That's simply because these are NOT contidictory to the Sriptures and to God. Similarly is the G12 movement! It is not taken from the Bible per se, but as long as it is not contridictory and against the Lord, IT IS NOT WRONG. Jesus said in Mark 9 that whoever is not against Him is FOR Him. Do you not know your Gospel well?

When FCBC said "Interestingly, after the death of Judas, the 11 disciples filled the position of the 12th disciple in the person of Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Only then, did the Holy Spirit descend and empower them.", it was mentioning that FOR THOSE disciples, it so happened that 12 people we needed to fulfil the Scriptures. But JUST LIKE THEM, we can form groups of 12 too - not because it's NEEDED, but because we want to. So now, after you going to tell me that forming Christian groups of 12 (the number because we WANT TO and not because it's mandatory) is wrong too?

You said that the Doctrine of Predestination has been "proven many time". Prove it. It's it the Partial Predestination that I, too, believe in, or the "Double Predestination" that I believe is wrong teaching? Don't just say "have been proven" - that's so unreliable. And if it's been proven, then why is it STILL one of the most hotly debated issues in Christian Theology? Don't take what YOU believe in as what EVERYONE believes in, please.

15/8/05 6:27 PM  
Blogger beowulf said...

I think Martin Luther's words are quite appropriate here: "Since your Majesty and your Lordships ask for a plain answer, I will give you one without either horns or teeth. Unless I am convicted by Scripture or by right reason (for I trust neither in popes nor in councils), since they have often erred and contradicted themselves) - unless I am thus convinced, I am bound by the texts of the Bible, my conscience is captive to the Word of God, I neither can nor will recant anything, since it is neither right nor safe to act against conscience. God help me. Amen."

I strongly suggest that you let the Bible be your guide to your beliefs, rather than use your fallible reasonings to determine what you "hope" God is and does. For instance, Romans 9 explicitly proved the Reformed doctrine of predestination. If you ignore or disregard whole passages in the Bible, there isn't much I can do to convince you.

1. Not all preachings lead to conversion. We do not know who are the elect, and therefore we must preach to as many people as we can. The desired outcome is up to God's will, not our human desires. God knows who are the elect, we don't.

2. Anything that is contrary to the Word of God is displeasing to God. For instance, I have already proven that "fathering the nations" is a distortion of the Word of God. 2 Peter 3:16 warn us against distorting the Scriptures.

3. Your question is already covered in both my articles. E.g. artificial divisions within the church, followers of men, taking the glory of salvation away from God, not recognizing Christ as the sole Head of the Church, the false doctrine of "plunder hell to populate Heaven” etc

4. Are you not aware that the Reformed churches are very active in missions? Do you know that William Carey, who was the missionary to India and also known as the "father of modern missions" was a Calvinist?

Can you name a Bible verse where it implies that the vast quantity of "conversions" is the criteria for knowing where God's favor is? The Bible warn us that there will be false teachers and false prophets who would perform signs and wonders. There will be many who will be deceived. How would we know whether these teachers are genuine? By going back to the Word of God.

And it seems that you did not read my words properly. I wrote in the article that we are the instruments of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we are sent by the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel. Nowhere in my writings did I discourage evangelism. In fact, I strongly believe in missions. As the Apostle Paul wrote, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news." (Romans 10:15)

However, evangelism should not be defined by our success rate. The Bible clearly teaches that we are to preach to all nations. We are to be God's "feet and mouth." But we cannot change the unbelievers' hearts. That's impossible. It is only through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit in which the hearts of the lost can be turned to God.

The phrase "the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few" is part of Matthew 9:37. In the following verse, it is written: "Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field." This verse indicates that God predestined evangelism since He is the one who "send out workers." Evangelism is men's efforts that is subjected to the sovereign will of God. In other words, God moves the hearts of men to evangelize. All glory must be given to God in the area of evangelism.

On Acts 1:20-26, FCBC is implying that twelve apostles are essential for the Pentecost. According to FCBC, without having twelve apostles, the Holy Spirit is unable to come. That's clearly nonsensical. Who dares limit the sovereign will of God to bring about Pentecost at any time He wishes?

On the doctrine of predestination, there are many well-known Christians who covered this subject. For instance, Augustine, John Calvin, A.A. Hodge, Theodore Beza, John Piper, James White, Francis Turretin, R.C. Sproul, Charles H. Spurgeon, John Murray, Geerhardus Vos, B.B. Warfield, John MacArthur, John Gill, George Whitefield etc. When the Arminianists broke away from Calvinism and produced the Remonstrance of 1610, the Calvinists wrote the Canons of Dordt that refutes every single point of the Remonstrance.

And no, I do not believe in double predestination. Double predestination is endorsed by the hyper-Calvinists, which is defined as a positive-positive predestination. The doctrine of predestination which I believe is seen in a positive-negative schema. This version is the orthodox Reformed view of predestination.

15/8/05 8:25 PM  
Blogger Yaevlejunce said...

Now, you said that Romans 9 “explicitly proves” but you did not show how. I have read Romans 9 again and again but have not found any evidence to support the Doctrine of Double Predestination.

You must be regarding verse 21 as your “evidence” but that will be failing to understand what I wrote in my blog (www.l-editeur.blogspot.com) regarding this. God, like I’ve said again and again, is NOT bound by time. To Him, there isn’t “happened”, “happening” or “will happen”. That’s because to Him, the I AM, everything is in a different dimension. He knows what’s going to happen because to Him, what is going to happen to us is what has already happed to Him.

In simple terms (for your benefit), God IS all-knowing – but that does not make Him all-deciding. One thing He does not decide is a person’s salvation. God says He knows before Creation who will go to heaven and who, hell. That’s absolutely true because to Him, the end is the same as the beginning (again, He is not bound by time). But the result of the end, while in His control, where Salvation is concerned, is a decision that’s made 100% by men (as a choice) and 100% by God (as He hardens and softens hearts, but given His just character, He still gives ALL men equal chance to choose to go up or down).

1. I strongly believe that the Elect are not chosen “randomly”. God, in heaven, knowing the beginning AND the end at any one time, picked the people who please Him – not that his choice for them being the Elect is one swayed by their actions since, afterall, Election is a process of Grace. But mind you, Grace is given to all but chosen by the Elects. That’s how the Elects come about for God choose because He sees from eternity, but men also does his part by accepting the grace lavished on them.

2. Anything contrary to the Scriptures is wrong, yes, but “Fathering the nations” is contrary? Explain and prove it. In what way is the fathering concept in any way displeasing to God? Just because it quotes a verse, but does not fully act out the context, it is “contrary” even though the action in itself and the intentions and end-results is pleasing to God?! Just because FCBC quotes a verse that does not apply (let’s assume this possibility), it is “contrary” to scriptures?! You have a wrong idea on “contrarying Scriptures”. Let me tell you what “contrarying Scriptures” is – it is denying what is in accordance to the Word of God its rightful position based on baseless claims that are itself distorted. In other words, YOU are contrarying Scriptures for you call the G12 movement “false teaching” when Jesus Himself said that whoever is not against Him is for Him.

3. Artificial divisions within the church?! Who are you kidding? This is “false teaching”? Tell me which church does not have “leaders”, “ushers”, “administrators”, “members”? Artificial divisions indeed! Just because these divisions are unfamiliar to you does not mean that they are “artificial” or wrong for like the usual healthy divisions in every church, these divisions in FCBC are performing indispensable functions too. Followers of men? Please, FCBC members are NOT following Apostle Khong blindly – they can discern and test everything he says, thankyouverymuch. Which church does not have a leader to lead? So are all these churches advocating “following men”?! No! These people aren’t following men; they are merely being guided BY men TO God. Get your facts right before making false accusations, please. And no, no, and again, NO, FCBC and the G12 movement does NOT deny God’s credit for salvation – on the contrary (now this is true contrary), YOU are the one denying God’s hand in this movement. It is evident that FCBC is moving in the spirit, growing faster than ever before, and it’s members all follow the Bible as the ONLY perfect materialized tool, thankyouverymuch. No one denies God glory for salvation, quite the opposite, it is recognized openly that this movement is futile without the work of the Holy Spirit – it is so often being said during sermons and in opportunities. Just because they do not write it on their foreheads and scribble it on their walls does NOT mean they snatch glory from God. And please, Mr Calvinist, WHO said that FCBC, in the G12 movement, does not recognize Christ as the sole leader of the church? They worship Jesus – ALONE, not Lawrence, if you must be told before you believe this. No one sees Lawrence as anything more than human who, too, makes mistakes. No one sees ANYONE worthy to be the sole trusted One other than God in FCBC. And now, coming to “FALSE DOCTRINE”. Please, be careful when you say such things about such things. Blasphemy, like I said, is not forgivable – what is holy, do not call unholy. Tell me this – Is the idea of plundering hell to populate heaven WRONG in any way? Does NOT God want those dammed to go to heaven too since He loves His creations? Or are you denying this wholesally?

4. I’m not surprised that there are great Calvinists (afterall you can quote the Corinthian 1 verse so many times, so I believe you understand that there should be no divisions between denominations except doctrines of debatability)- afterall, they, too, are great Christians. But why is it that to you, ONLY the Calvinist teachings are correct? G12 is “false teaching”, CHC’s divine healing (which I agree with, too, by the way since God, being the God of yesterday, today and tomorrow cannot be Jehovah Rapha in the Old Testament and NOT in the New and now) is “quoting out of context”, TCC’s apostolic involvement is “unorthodox” and COS’s absence of a church creed (and letting it’s members try and test and interpret the Bible for themselves) is not correct. What’s your problem, seriously?! You STILL have not proven why these are wrong. You merely give Biblical quotes that, too, do not debunk anything that these churches do.

In short, I have come to find you very selfish – you believe that Christians are born, not made. You believe that those who do not want to convert after we have simply “preached” to them, LET THEM GO TO HELL. Think for a moment – is this the Heart of God?

I did not say that the Bible said that a vast number of conversions is a sign to show God’s favour. But JUST THINKING LOGICALLY will tell you that, silly. I mean, if God is NOT for these movements, will they bring so many back to God?

Or wait – are you trying to say that FCBC, CHC, TCC and COS are the false prophets that Jesus prophesied about? Well, then again, let me warn you against blasphemy and calling what’s holy evil before you say anything. While I believe and regard the Calvinist branch as a complete part of the Church of God, I am sure anyone with eyes can see which branch is TRULY fulfilling God’s Great Commission and will. I’m sure he with eyes can see which churches here in Singapore are filled with the power of God and which are stagnant. People have eye, Mr. They can tell what is wrong teachings and what is right. FCBC, CHC, TCC and COS have done NOTHING that’s anti-parallel to the Bible. YOU are the one refuting all their movements with your plentiful “DOCTRINES AND CONCEPTS”. Now, who’s the one who’s NOT going back to the Bible?

You and your Predestination. You said the verse “Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.” Indicates Predestination. Think again. In any case, it does not show why we should NOT try our best to convert the world for IF we can convert those who are condemned to hell, WHY NOT? For God, being all-knowing, knows, too, that these people will be saved. But if everyone’s like you and merely ‘preach’ and go, WHERE will the salvations be? I, personally, know countless people who converted ONLY after people have shared the gospel AGAIN AND AGAIN – it took human effort! But do not get me wrong – just like it took human effort, it takes the Holy Spirit’s effort too. Like I said, 100% man, 100% God.

You said “According to FCBC, without having twelve apostles, the Holy Spirit is unable to come.? I, who am from FCBC, too do not believe this claim. So show me where FCBC said this. Do not merely quote – give me the link too.

Why are you talking to me about the History of the Calvinists? Inasmuch as I love the Calvinists as I love the Body of Christ, I don’t really care about what movements took place in the past. What matters is the NOW. If you claim not to believe in Double Predestination, then tell me what Doctrine of Predestination you believe in.

But whatever the case, Predestination, partially correct, like I said, is not perfect yet as it is still being debated over – if it was perfect, there’d’ve been no room for debates. While God knows, men STILL have a choice. Whatever form of Predestination you believe in, as long as you believe that the Lost are Lost and can NEVER be saved (like you have been implying) and that the Saved are Saved on mere basic of God’s random choice, then I believe you are not very correct in that Doctrine.

15/8/05 9:45 PM  
Blogger beowulf said...

It seems that you are unable to disprove what Romans 9:21 stated. I could not find anywhere in your writings that prove the doctrine of predestination wrong by reasoning from the Scriptures.

I agree that God is not limited by the boundaries of time. God is omniscient, that is He knows the future. However, it is also clearly stated in the Bible that He predestined the elect. Romans 8:30 states: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." In Ephesians 1:4, it is written: "For he chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight."

1. I do not believe that the elect are selected randomly either. No one knows why did God choose Abraham out of all the people in the world. No one knows why God chose Jacob instead of Esau. God did not choose the Israelites because of their righteousness (Deuteronomy 9:4-6). However, we do know that the elect are selected based on "His good, pleasing and perfect will." (Romans 12:2) And as I wrote earlier, no one seeks after God. Without God's intervention to change our sinful natures, we are absolutely incapable of making the choice to follow God. For it is written: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..." (John 6:44) Romans 3:11 states: "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

2. “Fathering the nations” is contrary to the Word of God because we are never told to "father the nations" like Abraham. Please read my article carefully. It's like trying to acknowledge the Apostle Peter as the pope. The Roman Catholic Church has distorted the Scriptures out of context. The Roman Catholics are arguing for this doctrine's benefits. It is probable that the intentions of the Roman Catholics are sincere. The Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses are probably sincere too. I do not doubt their sincerity. However, their doctrines are contrary to the Word of God. Sincerity, signs and wonders does not justify that the teachings are of God.

3. Your examples are meant to help with the administrative areas of the church. However, the G12 model deals with the pastoral areas which the Bible touches upon. These are the areas where there should not be any divisions within the church. When the Apostle Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the Corinthians were "enriched in every way" and they "do not lack any spiritual gift." (1 Corinthians 1:5-7) Does this sounds familar to you? There are probably signs and wonders happening in Corinth (1 Corinthians 14). The Corinthians were probably thinking that they are "merely being guided BY men TO God."

I imagine that after the Apostle Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the Corinthians were immediately penning a letter (quite similar to yours) to Paul, counter-arguing that they "aren’t following men; they are merely being guided BY men TO God. Get your facts right before making false accusations." Maybe the Corinthians threw a couple of words like "Blasphemy!" in their letter. They would be justifying how much the church in Corinth was "moving in the spirit, growing faster than ever before." I do believe that the Corinthians were no doubt a Spirit-filled church at that time.

And by the way, I hope that the FCBC members are not following Lawrence Khong blindly, for as far as I can tell, your beliefs seems to be based on your gut feelings rather than based on the Word of God.

4. Let me say that first and foremost, I am a Bible-believing Christian. My Christian beliefs are based on the Bible alone. In the past, I was an Arminianist. My Arminianist beliefs were the result of inadequate Bible studies and an incomplete understanding of the Bible. As I seriously study the Scriptures, I began to find myself aligning more and more with the classical Reformed teachings. Therefore, so long as I am persuaded from the proper interpretations of the Word of God that the Reformed teachings are flawed, I would not hesitate to renounce a particular false doctrine.

And no, I did not imply in any way that the absence of a church creed or confession is wrong. I simply recognize the value of a creed or confession.

5. Numbers do not prove anything. The Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus can also claim that they "bring so many back to God." Does it mean that the teachings in other religions are correct? Does it mean that God is behind those movements?

1 Timothy 4:16 tells us that we are to "watch your life and doctrine closely." 2 Timothy 2:15 also states: "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." How do we recognize the truth then? By studying the Word of God.

6. Again and again, it appears that you do not understand my words. I do recognize the value of human efforts in preaching the gospel. Preaching the gospel takes patience and time. However, I believe that human efforts / preaching / evangelism are ordained by God. As I do not know whether the unbeliever I am preaching to is one of the elect, I will have to assume that the unbeliever might probably be one of the elect. Therefore, I will keep on preaching to him whenever possible until the Holy Spirit regenerates his heart and cause him to believe in the gospel.

7. The FCBC quote regarding the twelve apostles can be found at http://www.fcbc.org.sg/g12_main.htm.

8. This article by R.C. Sproul provides a good explanation of the Reformed doctrine of predestination. There are many resources on predestination that can be found at this website: http://www.monergism.com.

16/8/05 12:51 AM  
Blogger Yaevlejunce said...

I am not going to argue with you anymore not because I cannot (if you know me, you'll know how I NEVER let go in an argument) but because I am not going to continue tossing pearls before a swine (I'm sure you don't need me to quote this before you call this "bibilical" a quotation).

But I am addressing the many flaws in your arguements in my blog (www.yaevlejunce.blogspot.com) NOT because I want to (or need to, for that matter) but because I want to enlighten the readers of both this blog and mine - afterall, I try and test everything I read and what I test and try, I evaluate.

Where your words of denouncement are concerned, I have chosen to evaluate at my blog.

16/8/05 5:19 PM  
Blogger nartz said...

i find yaevlejunce's responses and replies highly appalling and highly un-Christian. like i have said to you, yaevlejuncee, in your blog, you ought to go reflect on whether you are a theology debator or a Christian who has received his salvation from God because you sure dont act like what you claim to be.

your holier-than-thou attitude, as seen by your throwing of accusations that beowulf's opinions are blasphemous and your use of words like tantamount, highly disgusts me. its reeks of self-righteousness and lacks humility.

you.
need.
an.
attitude.
check.

as for beowulf, great article once again. thank God that there are still people out there willing to discern and put across articles that brings to light the often easily accepted warped doctrines that many megachurches are adopting in such times. :)

27/8/05 5:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quick glance at Yaevlejunce:

Joel Goh
Age: 17
Gender: male
Astrological Sign: Cancer
Zodiac Year: Dragon
Industry: Education
Occupation: Student
Location: Singapore
About Me
My ambition in life is to be a drifter drifting around the world with money to spend, sights to capture on film (or pixels for that matter) and books to write about my travels around this planet that God, I believe, didn't create this size with the intention of us occupying merely a dot in it all the days of our lives for I feel that this is the one and only way I can maximumly appreciate the beauty of the world that God actually made effort (speaking is, afterall, effort in its very own right) in creating so spectacularly charmingly beautiful and wonderful for our enjoyment in the very first place to start with.

11/10/05 12:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1John4:1-3
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

it seems like churches like chc n fcbc does acknowlegde that Jesus came in the flesh,and these churches are not against Jesus..so people will,after examining the scriptures,find these churches to be of the right spirit..
so what do we really have to say about these megachurches?are they preaching something which can be destructive? it seems that their growth reflects their success,but is there some kind of time bomb ticking which may cause their church members to stumble big time.?

18/7/06 4:34 AM  
Blogger beowulf said...

One of the most destructive modern theologies ever to appear in Christianity is the word-faith or prosperity theology. And from my observation, it seems that many megachurches subscribe to this teaching. I have expressed my opinion of this teaching many times in my blog

There is also this teaching that places the burden of conversion on the persuasiveness of the preacher rather than the work of the Holy Spirit, thereby denying the glory that God alone deserves. I observe that most who subscribe to this view generally tend to dilute or not fully present the gospel message. The wrath of God, men’s sinful condition, men’s utter inability to save themselves, and the call for true repentance is glossed over quickly or not mentioned, which might probably lead to many false conversions.

Acknowledging that Jesus comes in the flesh sounds like a pretty vague standard to determine whether a church is against Jesus, or the gospel. If this is all that is, then the Roman Catholic Church would fall within this standard too. Open theist churches that deny the divine foreknowledge of God and liberal churches that deny salvation through Jesus Christ alone can be said to be “not against Jesus.”

When one turn to the Scriptures, one would note that the apostle Paul’s dispute with the church of Galatia is not over Christology. In all likelihood, the Galatians did acknowledge that Jesus comes in the flesh. However, in the epistle to the Galatians, the apostle had written very strong words, condemning anyone who preaches the false gospel. In the case of the Galatians, it would be the heresy of requiring circumcision for salvation. Thus, recognizing a false prophet requires more than just conforming to a correct understanding of Christology.

In conclusion, acknowledging Jesus comes in the flesh should be regarded as one of the standards. But to make it the sole standard to determine whether a person or a church is against Jesus is surely not enough.

18/7/06 10:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ummmm wow wat a false doctrine

4/8/06 12:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do STRONGLY AGREE with yaevlejunce. I find that FCBC is a church that definitely believes in the Word of God. Moreover, the teachings of Apostle Lawrence Khong are definitely scriptural.
I personally do not agree with predestination. Does that mean that preaching to a devout Buddhist once, and when he doesnt get saved, we leave him to his fate, and not continuously reach out TILL his salvation? I believe Ezekiel 3:18 said that ''when i say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die', and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS BLOOD''. Do you see that? We are SUPPOSED to work in evangelism to see the salvations of many, if not WE are accountable before who? GOD!!. So its not right to say that His Elect will go to Heaven, the rest to Hell, condemned. The Great Commission states that we sholu ''go forth and make disciples of ALL Nations..'' and these are words from the mouth of Lord Jesus Christ Himself!! Does it mean only some people from USA will be saved? NO!! EVERYBODY MUST BE SAVED!!!!! We should continue to evangelise to see the WHole World won for Christ. And who says the megachurches are not focused on the Holy Spirit? Do you know that in FCBC, the church focuses on worshippping the Holy Spirit, in CHC prayer always begans in worshipping in Tongues...So beowulf...please stop decieving others, especially if you have not even visited these churches...

25/8/06 4:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is frightful if the responsiblity of salvation rests on fallible human beings and not the holy spirit.Don't you think so?

30/9/06 10:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Having been involved in a G12 Church that has used the kind of words and phrases that yaevlejunce uses, i can tell you that my families lives have been destroyed through the arrogance and selfish ambition of the so called leader. I was in leadership at the church pre G12 but because i didn't fully agree with the 'G12 vision' ( read the many valid points made by beowulf) my 30 years as a christian serving that church have counted for nothing.

I now attend another church but am disillusioned at the way the church has been hijacked by these self seeking, personally driven manipulators, who come across as those who can be questioned, but who will not take no as an answer.

I have personally seen many go back into the world because they were driven out by G12, how can this be of God? I have seen churches split in 2 because of G 12. I have people suicidal ( yes i mean that) because of G12.

Please don't tell me this is of God when the reults do not glorify God or his kingdom.

These people who have this driving desire to 'win' people sadly have their christianity and philosophy mixed up. They deep down want to control people and are afraid that God needs some help in this department. They seek to control the Kingdom and want to 'bring it in' because they are not sure that God can do this on His own.

please forgive me i seem to be getting a little cynical, but who wouldn't after the appalling way i have been treated. These so called self elevated and appointed 'leaders' ( don't use the word minister,preacher, or pastor)have been beguiled by the spirit of the age which is motivated by the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, they are spiritual busineesmen, they say they work on business models, indeed they do they are making alot of money out of people they claim to have converted.

G12 is a form of spiritual trickery and once people have been caught in their 'nets' they are sucked into this devious world.

I speak from experience, i know the pain, but am now free from the hurt and the control. May God be glorified in HIS church.

22/4/07 4:17 PM  
Blogger Jonathan said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6/8/07 2:28 PM  
Blogger Jonathan said...

I have to say that I am extremely touched by Beowulf's patience and perseverance in preaching and discovering the truth. It also amazes me that in the eyes both the Christian and non-Christian, by reading the exchange of posts between Beowulf and Yaevlejunce alone, one can make out from the tone of writing and the expressions used, that one person is writing out of love and a sincere attitude of complete surrender to God's word, while the other person approaches him with an attitude of condemnation.

If we as Christians and under Jesus' instructions are taught to love our neighbours as well as our enemies (Matthew 5:43), then we are to love, love, love. How, then, is such an attitude of disrespect and even hatred the slightest example of how we as Christ's children should be? It is distressing, Yaevlejunce, that although you have such fervour and enthusiasm to declare your faith, you do not bring the focus of your speech to Christ and his word. Before I say what I have to say, I would like you to know (and I am hopeful that Beowulf would have the same sentiment) that whatever I say is said out of brotherly love. I am not trying to find "countless flaws in your defence", but what we really should be striving for is for God's word and His truth to be made known. I have and will come across my fair share of corrections and rebukes, and I have corrected and rebuked others, but the fact remains that God's word is sovereign to you and me, and reigns above the words of any person and any church.

While you says that men have the choice, and it is 100% theirs - if you agree with Apostle Paul about the fact that we are dead in sin (Romans 6:2), how then does a person who is spiritually "dead" make any decision towards Christ? Dead means dead, it doesn't mean almost dead and definitely doesn't mean only injured. A dead person can no more make a decision for himself than he can walk and talk. The only way that he can make the decision is if he is called to life first, in which case the credit goes, totally and wholly, to the person who calls him. This is wonderfully exemplified when Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead by calling him out of his resting place. (John 11). Lazarus could not, in any way, make the slightest decision to become alive..he didn't even have 1% of the choice - he was dead! When we are dead in sin, we are totally depraved - we have no inclination towards Christ. The only way to come back to Christ is when He, and He alone, calls us out, in which case the glory and honour is all his.

As a raging alcoholic, for example, you can be said to be dead in your addiction. You are "free" to make the choice between addiction and a clean life..but in reality you have no free will. In essence, a raging alcoholic is slave to his addiction but he still freely chooses to drink. We humans are already the "raging alcoholics", except worse. Alcoholics took the path down into addiction. We however, have been dead in sin since the beginning! We were born into sin. Therefore we freely choose to sin because it is our nature, and being dead in our sins, will not by our own choice choose salvation even if it is placed in front of us on a silver platter. You are wrong to say that John Calvin says "There is no choice". Calvin says "We are free to make a choice, but given the choice, we would never pick the right one because of our nature". The only way we can be saved is if God calls us to Him, in which case the effort and glory is His and His alone.

Jesus said "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:3) It is interesting to note that Jesus doesn't say "unless he turns over a new leaf" or "unless he is changes his ways". The term "born" is so important, yet so often overlooked. When a baby is born, it (I shall use "it" for convenience sake) has no choice over whether or not it wants to be born. It does not have a say in what happens, and it surely cannot "decide" not to be born. It does not decide when to come out of the mother's womb, and during childbirth, none of the effort of pushing belongs to itself. Jesus draws the parallel between being born in the flesh and born in the Spirit (John 3).If this is the case, then when we are born again - we cannot, and should not, take any credit. All the glory is given to God, and God alone.

I cannot stress strongly enough how important the Great Commision is. We have to realize, though, that even as we go out into the world, we go out as God's servants, for His purpose and for His glory. We also go out as examples to this world - we are as prized animals on display to everyone. The whole world is watching our actions and speech, many waiting for us to make a wrong move so they can denounce our worth and faith - the Apostle Paul felt this very strongly. We have to look constantly to God, and surrender ourselves completely to His will.

Yaevlejunce, brother, you have a passion that is far greater than many, who would just sit back and not care instead of airing their views. I find that exceedingly admirable. But our passion is not founded in our own opinions, never in the church's. Our passion is founded in God alone. Turn your focus to Him and all things will fall in place. God bless you!

6/8/07 2:33 PM  
Blogger terej_supergirl said...

we're not called to debate. whatever happens, Matt28:19-20 remains... we're called to go and make disciples. whatever ur method is, just go and speak the Truth in making disciples. after all, and at the end of the day, God will be asking as what we did with what He commissioned us.

25/9/08 12:06 PM  
Blogger The Student said...

@supergirl:

we're not called to debate. whatever happens, Matt28:19-20 remains... we're called to go and make disciples. whatever ur method is, just go and speak the Truth in making disciples. after all, and at the end of the day, God will be asking as what we did with what He commissioned us.

<=Yes, the great commission remains yet I do not agree with the 'whatever ur method' is. A common saying would be 'The end does not justify the means', we would have to seek God's will from the Bible and see what principles He has in mind.

22/4/09 12:44 PM  
Blogger ravrodriguez said...

Brother:

Your warning regarding G12 is important. Some churches want to follow the Lord command to make disciples of all nations-however with pride they want to do it in the flesh and with methods of the world.

The devil will not make a competing model from a totally opposite model-He will do a similar one that can deceive -even the elect-and will wreck people's lives.

Broad is the way that leads to destruction-and narrow that leads to life.Many persons only made decisions fro Christ-but they never become His disciples-who will not listen to the voise of the hireling or thief-but only to the true Shepherd-our Lord Jesus Christ.

With a heavy heart -we must continue to warn those being mislead-not becuase we want to be right all the time-but because we can see where they are going-temporal and spiritual destruction.

4/2/10 12:51 PM  
Anonymous contactos barcelona said...

No doubt, the writer is completely right.

28/9/11 4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Like tat I advise you to write ur own version of the Bible.. Coz Charismetic is full of false doctrines use to misguide the pre-believer about the concept of Christianity which is not right..

27/12/15 11:52 PM  

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