From Charismatic to Reformed
My purpose in writing this post is to provide a little insight into my background. I realize most of my readers may not be aware I was part of the charismatic movement.
Early Years
I have been involved in the charismatic movement for some 15 years. I was formerly a member of a non-denominational church with charismatic beliefs where I attended Sunday school since age 10. From young, I have been taught charismatic gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophecies are part of a bona fide Christian experience.
Before I entered my teens, I remember my dad used to play Christian music from Maranatha Music in the car while he took me to school. I also remember I love listening to songs from the Psalty cassette tapes by Ernie Rettino. Besides church activities and Sunday school camps, I have attended children programmes organized by the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International. I also recall attending an evangelistic crusade where Reinhard Bonnke was the main speaker.
All these took place somewhere between the mid-eighties and late-eighties.
Early Teens
I was 14 when I was involved in a ministry. I became part of the sound crew. I served for around 3 years before joining the youth music ministry as a pianist after my GCE “O” level exams. During those times, I became interested in Christian music. I would go to Christian Growth and Trumpet Praise, two Christian stores in Paradiz Centre to purchase cassette tapes. The first tapes I bought were by Integrity Music – Highest Place by Bob Fitts and Chosen Treasure by Bob Kauflin. The first time I attended the Festival of Praise was in 1990 where I bought the tape Pray For This City by Rick and Patti Ridings.
Since then, I have bought quite a number of Integrity Music tapes. Besides tapes from Integrity Music, I remember Bob Fitts’ albums as one of my favorites, for example Live Worship With Bob Fitts (Maranatha Music) and Take My Healing To The Nations / Sacrifice. The first CCM (Christian Contemporary Music) album I bought was by Twila Paris called Cry For The Desert.
During my early teens, I became interested in reading about apologetics, mostly reading books by Josh McDowell. Some of the McDowell books are Understanding the Occult, Understanding Secular Religions, More Than a Carpenter, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1 & 2. Other popular books that I read during my teens include The Bondage Breaker and Victory over the Darkness by Neil T. Anderson and Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth by Richard J. Foster.
At 15, I was baptized by immersion. It was an interesting baptism as I was baptized at the East Coast beach by the sea.
Mid to Late Teens
I believe I switched from cassette tape to CD in my mid-teens. I began to discover worship music by Kent Henry. I was quite a big Kent Henry fan back then, having bought many of his CDs. I also remember Petra, a Christian rock group, which I listened to. Some of the Christian artistes and worship leaders whose albums I bought during that time include Lenny LeBlanc, Don Moen, Ron Kenoly, Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael English, Ray Boltz, and Dennis Jernigan. I have also bought worship albums from Christ for the Nations.
There were a couple of events I have attended during those years. I was consistently attending the Festival of Praise every year. There were events that have artistes like The Continental Singers, Bobby Michaels, Ron Kenoly and a Christian trumpeter whose name escapes my memory. I have also attended a seminar by Bill Gothard from the Institute in Basic Life Principles.
I was about 18 when I began serving as a pianist in the Sunday main service, in addition to serving in the youth music ministry. I was also involved with Campus Crusade for Christ as well, having attended their basic and intermediate training.
Into Adulthood
After my National Service, I was still serving as a pianist in the main service, though I was no longer serving in the youth music ministry. By that time, I have already participated in a couple of music-related and evangelistic church events. I have gone for mission trips and retreats.
During this time, I have read Charismatic Chaos by John F. MacArthur, as well as bought the book Surprised by the Power of the Spirit by Jack Deere.
It was probably during this time when I became interested in the history of Christianity. It was mainly because I was interested in examining the doctrinal errors of Roman Catholicism. I was still an Arminian then. One thing basically led to another. I learnt of the five Solas. From there, I became interested in theology. One book that got me interested in theology was By Faith Alone: The Doctrine that Divides by R.C. Sproul. I also bought the book The Doctrine of Sanctification by A.W. Pink. At that time, I did not know that these books were by Reformed writers. In fact, I have never heard about Calvinism or TULIP.
After reading By Faith Alone, I felt as though I have gone through an experience similar to Martin Luther; when he discovered the cardinal truth of salvation. I began to buy more theological books such as The Roman Catholic Controversy by James R. White and Protestants & Catholics: Do They Now Agree? by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. These books make me more appreciative of the five Solas. I have also bought an abridged version of John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion even though I was not a Calvinist then.
During that time, I was still buying CD albums from Christian music groups like Hillsong Music Australia, Youth Alive Australia, and Planet Shakers. Some CCM artistes whose albums I bought that comes to mind are Point of Grace, Amy Grant, Rebecca St James, Rachael Lampa, Jaci Velasquez, Russ Lee, and Michael W. Smith.
As I immersed myself into these theological books, I began to turn more and more towards the Word of God. Before this, I was not a serious student of the Word of God, not giving it priority over my love for charismatic worship. Yes, I did read the Gospels and knew the popular Bible stories, but I have not paid much attention to sound doctrine.
The book that was instrumental in turning me into a 5-point Calvinist was Chosen By God by R.C. Sproul. While By Faith Alone awaken me to Sola Fide, Chosen By God impressed upon me the doctrine of Sola Gratia - the sovereign grace of God. From then on, I began dive into the Reformed faith, examining theological arguments by Arminians, buying books by Reformed writers, and not least, carefully studying the Word of God.
At Present
I am still listening to charismatic worship and CCM music, though not as much as I used to when I was a teenager. Nowadays, I find myself enjoying the hymns in the church service much more than the modern stuff i.e. Hillsong, Planet Shakers, Passion Worship Band etc. The sermons have become the most important part of the Sunday worship service for me. I am also more selective in the music I am listening to nowadays, favoring songs with meaningful lyrical content over songs with shallow “Jesus-is-my-Boyfriend” lyrics.
I now hold a cessationalist view of the Apostolic spiritual gift of prophecy, healing and tongues. However, I am a "weak" cessationalist as I believe these visible manifestations only occur under extraordinary circumstances and they are by way of exception rather than the norm.
Like all Calvinists, I do believe in miracles because the miracles God performing today, since the beginning of Creation, is regenerating the hearts of His elect. For without these miracles, evangelism and missions is useless. I do not have to go to a "healing" crusade to see miracles. Just look around you. Believers who are saved through the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ are visible walking proofs that God is still actively performing miracles today.
Early Years
I have been involved in the charismatic movement for some 15 years. I was formerly a member of a non-denominational church with charismatic beliefs where I attended Sunday school since age 10. From young, I have been taught charismatic gifts such as speaking in tongues and prophecies are part of a bona fide Christian experience.
Before I entered my teens, I remember my dad used to play Christian music from Maranatha Music in the car while he took me to school. I also remember I love listening to songs from the Psalty cassette tapes by Ernie Rettino. Besides church activities and Sunday school camps, I have attended children programmes organized by the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International. I also recall attending an evangelistic crusade where Reinhard Bonnke was the main speaker.
All these took place somewhere between the mid-eighties and late-eighties.
Early Teens
I was 14 when I was involved in a ministry. I became part of the sound crew. I served for around 3 years before joining the youth music ministry as a pianist after my GCE “O” level exams. During those times, I became interested in Christian music. I would go to Christian Growth and Trumpet Praise, two Christian stores in Paradiz Centre to purchase cassette tapes. The first tapes I bought were by Integrity Music – Highest Place by Bob Fitts and Chosen Treasure by Bob Kauflin. The first time I attended the Festival of Praise was in 1990 where I bought the tape Pray For This City by Rick and Patti Ridings.
Since then, I have bought quite a number of Integrity Music tapes. Besides tapes from Integrity Music, I remember Bob Fitts’ albums as one of my favorites, for example Live Worship With Bob Fitts (Maranatha Music) and Take My Healing To The Nations / Sacrifice. The first CCM (Christian Contemporary Music) album I bought was by Twila Paris called Cry For The Desert.
During my early teens, I became interested in reading about apologetics, mostly reading books by Josh McDowell. Some of the McDowell books are Understanding the Occult, Understanding Secular Religions, More Than a Carpenter, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1 & 2. Other popular books that I read during my teens include The Bondage Breaker and Victory over the Darkness by Neil T. Anderson and Celebration of Discipline: The Path to Spiritual Growth by Richard J. Foster.
At 15, I was baptized by immersion. It was an interesting baptism as I was baptized at the East Coast beach by the sea.
Mid to Late Teens
I believe I switched from cassette tape to CD in my mid-teens. I began to discover worship music by Kent Henry. I was quite a big Kent Henry fan back then, having bought many of his CDs. I also remember Petra, a Christian rock group, which I listened to. Some of the Christian artistes and worship leaders whose albums I bought during that time include Lenny LeBlanc, Don Moen, Ron Kenoly, Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael English, Ray Boltz, and Dennis Jernigan. I have also bought worship albums from Christ for the Nations.
There were a couple of events I have attended during those years. I was consistently attending the Festival of Praise every year. There were events that have artistes like The Continental Singers, Bobby Michaels, Ron Kenoly and a Christian trumpeter whose name escapes my memory. I have also attended a seminar by Bill Gothard from the Institute in Basic Life Principles.
I was about 18 when I began serving as a pianist in the Sunday main service, in addition to serving in the youth music ministry. I was also involved with Campus Crusade for Christ as well, having attended their basic and intermediate training.
Into Adulthood
After my National Service, I was still serving as a pianist in the main service, though I was no longer serving in the youth music ministry. By that time, I have already participated in a couple of music-related and evangelistic church events. I have gone for mission trips and retreats.
During this time, I have read Charismatic Chaos by John F. MacArthur, as well as bought the book Surprised by the Power of the Spirit by Jack Deere.
It was probably during this time when I became interested in the history of Christianity. It was mainly because I was interested in examining the doctrinal errors of Roman Catholicism. I was still an Arminian then. One thing basically led to another. I learnt of the five Solas. From there, I became interested in theology. One book that got me interested in theology was By Faith Alone: The Doctrine that Divides by R.C. Sproul. I also bought the book The Doctrine of Sanctification by A.W. Pink. At that time, I did not know that these books were by Reformed writers. In fact, I have never heard about Calvinism or TULIP.
After reading By Faith Alone, I felt as though I have gone through an experience similar to Martin Luther; when he discovered the cardinal truth of salvation. I began to buy more theological books such as The Roman Catholic Controversy by James R. White and Protestants & Catholics: Do They Now Agree? by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. These books make me more appreciative of the five Solas. I have also bought an abridged version of John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion even though I was not a Calvinist then.
During that time, I was still buying CD albums from Christian music groups like Hillsong Music Australia, Youth Alive Australia, and Planet Shakers. Some CCM artistes whose albums I bought that comes to mind are Point of Grace, Amy Grant, Rebecca St James, Rachael Lampa, Jaci Velasquez, Russ Lee, and Michael W. Smith.
As I immersed myself into these theological books, I began to turn more and more towards the Word of God. Before this, I was not a serious student of the Word of God, not giving it priority over my love for charismatic worship. Yes, I did read the Gospels and knew the popular Bible stories, but I have not paid much attention to sound doctrine.
The book that was instrumental in turning me into a 5-point Calvinist was Chosen By God by R.C. Sproul. While By Faith Alone awaken me to Sola Fide, Chosen By God impressed upon me the doctrine of Sola Gratia - the sovereign grace of God. From then on, I began dive into the Reformed faith, examining theological arguments by Arminians, buying books by Reformed writers, and not least, carefully studying the Word of God.
At Present
I am still listening to charismatic worship and CCM music, though not as much as I used to when I was a teenager. Nowadays, I find myself enjoying the hymns in the church service much more than the modern stuff i.e. Hillsong, Planet Shakers, Passion Worship Band etc. The sermons have become the most important part of the Sunday worship service for me. I am also more selective in the music I am listening to nowadays, favoring songs with meaningful lyrical content over songs with shallow “Jesus-is-my-Boyfriend” lyrics.
I now hold a cessationalist view of the Apostolic spiritual gift of prophecy, healing and tongues. However, I am a "weak" cessationalist as I believe these visible manifestations only occur under extraordinary circumstances and they are by way of exception rather than the norm.
Like all Calvinists, I do believe in miracles because the miracles God performing today, since the beginning of Creation, is regenerating the hearts of His elect. For without these miracles, evangelism and missions is useless. I do not have to go to a "healing" crusade to see miracles. Just look around you. Believers who are saved through the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ are visible walking proofs that God is still actively performing miracles today.
posted by calvinistguy at 11:00 AM
23 Comments:
Glad to know that you're still serving God after all these years! As you know I'm in NS right know and I could concur with you that it is really the Word of God that sustained me through all the way.
I've seen many fall away from God and it is really by his grace that we're still fervent for Him. Though we may have many many differences when it comes to theology, but let it not distract us from the fact that we have one common goal: to be the light of the world, a city on a hill cannot be hidden.
I have always wandered why charismatic churches teach their memebers to speak in tongues with more fervour than to love God, & study the bible.Though I am a not a charsimatic, I have attended Anglican & Methodist churches with strong charismatic beliefs for several months, & have observed this.
You wrote,"At Present I am still listening to charismatic worship", are you still worshiping in the non-denominational church with charismatic beliefs.
The reformed & calvinistic churches have always placed a strong emphasis on the sermons.This could be seen from the design of their santuaries. The pulpit is often the central of the santuary. This is in contrast to Anglican & Lutheran Churches, where the altar(/table for holy communion) is the central.
The pastor's preaching is an important part of the Sunday worship service, but the liturgy of Holy communion & baptism are also important parts of worship. Not to be left out, of course, is the singing of hymns/ worship songs. Theology can be learned through all these. The Holy communion reminds us of GOd's atoning death.Even Baptism service is meaningful as it reminds us of our promise to God to be his disciple, to spread his gospel ... Ever part of worship is important. Sermons are always before Holy communion, because without the sermon (biblical understanding), the Holy communion can become meaningless.
Even departing from worship is a form of worship. We depart from worship service to serve God (evangelism, witnessing), butwe do not stop worshipping God.
I have also always prefered hymn to contemporary songs.The lyrics have more substance!
You wrote: you are a "weak" cessationalist as I believe these visible manifestations only occur under extraordinary circumstances and they are by way of exception rather than the norm.
If I am not wrong, your view is the "open but cautious" view(to quote from the book "Are Miraculous gifts for today", edited by Wayne Grudem, Zondervan). This is also the view of the majority of evangelicals who are non-charismatics.
I agree that we do not have to go to a "healing" crusade to see miracles. Yes, believers who are saved through the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ are visible walking proofs that God is still actively performing miracles today. Praise be to God!!
Most charismatics do not write with the biblical fervour that Reformed/Calvinist theologians/pastors seem to possess. Charismatics seem to be more experiential than scriptural.
By the way, may I ask which church you are currently worshipping in?
Like Terence, I do see many people turn away from God too. Perhaps they may have felt spiritually dry. Perhaps they are too caught up in life pursuits. Some may choose to forsake God. Some may choose to go to another charismatic church to revitalize their spiritual lives.
As for me, I prefer to spend more time studying the Word of God. I observe many charismatics like to chase after the latest Christian fads for quick-fix solutions for their problems. The most popular excuses for not studying the Word of God are “I have no time” or “leave it for the theologians.” They prefer to “feel the presence of God.” They might even evade the subject by telling others they need to have “heart knowledge,” instead of “head knowledge,” as if there is a mysterious gap between these two.
In theory, many charismatics may affirm Sola Scriptura, but in practice, the Word of God becomes subordinate to their experiences. There seems to be a pervasive air of anti-intellectualism among many of them, who embraces mysticism as the norm. If deep spirituality could be attained through hearing God’s audible voice and modern-day prophecies, then why choose to do it the hard and time-consuming way – by studying the Word of God? Hence, they become theologically lazy.
I am no longer with the charismatic church, but with an Open Brethren church that has a mixture of traditional and contemporary worship services. My former church also has Brethren roots, and according to Brethren tradition, the Lord’s Supper is celebrated every week. I do agree with Ignatius that the Lord’s Supper and Baptism are important as they are important ordinances instituted by Christ.
And yes, I believe I would belong to the category of Christians who adopt the “open but cautious” view. The relevatory spiritual gifts are no joking matter. If you claim to speak on behalf of God as His prophet, then we must seriously test your claim. All modern-day prophecies must be subordinate to the Word of God. If the prophecy turns out to be false, this would be a serious sin punishable by death in the Old Testament. I believe severe church discipline such as excommunication should be applied to the false prophet, like the punishment for adulterers in 1 Corinthians 5.
In any case, I believe the Scriptures are sufficient for us according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17. If the prophecy agrees with the Scriptures, then it is unnecessary. If it disagrees, then it is false.
Ignatius: For the lutherans there are 2 "highlights" in a church service - The Sacrament of the Word (preaching) and The Sacrament of Holy Communion. Both are equally important. Just to clarify your point about the altar being central for lutherans.
beowulf: Was the christian trumpter you mentioned in your entry Phil Driscoll?
naniecheng,
At first, I thought it was Phil Driscoll. But I don't think so. I am still trying to recall his name.
naniecheng,I think you are right.
If I am not wrong,historically (which I think the term is still being used now), the phrase used to describe Lutheran worship is Divine Service.The two main components of the Divine Service comprises, firstly, the proclamation of the Word of God, and, next, the celebration of the Lord's Supper.
On my point that the "altar being central", I am refering to the design of the santuary, & not using "central" as refering to "importance".This is rather stupid, but if the altar is not at the central, where could it be! It could have disappeared. Most non-litrgical(though every church does a liturgy!) & new churches (with charismatic/ Pentecostal/seeker service/Praise & worship, whatever they call it)do not have an altar.Instead, they have a stage.Maybe they feel a stage will be more popular with the crowd!
Anglican("Episcopal") churches will almost always have the altar as the centre element,& a pulpit raised(The word "Pulpit" is from the Latin"pulpitum", meaning "a platform.")but to the gospel side (on the right-hand side of the priest celebrating the Holy Communion) of the nave.
I said in Anglican Churches,the altar(/table for holy communion) is the central.What I am saying is that the altar is the FOCUS for the Liturgy of the TABLE portion of the Eucharist.
If we look at the altar area, you will see an arrangement that reflects the theological emphasis that is important to the Anglican Communion of Churches. Anglican/ Episcopal theology emphasizes a balance of Word & sacrament. Jesus Christ is present for and among his people in both the Gospels and in the Reserved Sacrament.
Nonetheless, Reformed churches(Presbyterian included, though there are variations too. Oh..., why is that so much differences!!)
place much more emphasis on sermons(the preaching of the Word of God). This is not to say the Reformed churches do not see the Lord's Supper as important.
Just for interest: On the right side of the altar, a lectern, which is used during the Liturgy of the WORD portion of the Eucharist, can be found. On it rests a LARGE Bible. The lectern and Bible symbolize the IMPORTANCE of the Word of God in their worship.
Just in case!:In case younger Christians mistake an altar for something related with idol worship.In a church, an altar is just the table for holy communion (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dict: "a type of table used in ceremonies in a Christian church or in other religious buildings")
beowulf: was it Dan Oxley?
Nope. I don't think it is him either. If I do recall correctly, he is also a singer who has a fantastic vocal range.
I admire your reverance for the Word of God. It is great that you place so much emphasis on the Bible. Yes, it is true that many charismatics tend to forgo the Word of God in favour of "experience", the latest worship songs and other gimmicks. But as a charismatic Christian myself, let me affirm with you what my beliefs are:
1) I do treasure the Word of God. I take the effort to read the Bible and ground myself in theological depth.
2) I treasure the "presence of God". I believe that Christianity is experential and not just about the Bible. Yes the Bible is very very important, but so is the experential aspect of Christianity.
3) I distinguish between the Logos (written) Word of God and the Rhema (spoken) Word of God. Both are important. A Christian must have both the Logos and the Rhema Word in their lives.
Not many are inclined to theology. For me and you, it is easy. We can delve hours upon hours upon such discussions. But God did not wire everyone that way. We all have different talents and abilities. To condemn people with less inclination to theology is wrong. They just need more time and training. Some need to brush up their English skills (think ITE and primary school education). If we are called to be teachers of God's Word, then we should bear the responsibility of teaching it to others.
Btw, for your info I came from an Anglican church and shifted to a Charismatic Church.
To ignatius: To say that charismatic churches place more emphasis on tongues-speaking than loving God and reading the Bible is a gross mistake. Obviously you have not been to City Harvest. :P
To Terrence: I am not sure if City Harvest emphasis bible study. Having strong cell groups doesn't necessarily guarantee quality bible study. It can become chit-chat session. Of course, fellowship is impt, but studying GOd's Word cannot be substituted!In reality, I think the quality depends very much on the effectiveness of the leader.
But members of (many)charismatic churches sure show more fervor towards tongues-speaking than bible-studying. As to whether they love God, I am in no position to comment. It's btw them & God.
It's true that Christianity is experential, but we need to be careful, always subjecting it to scripture. I've seen too many pple who are lead out of Church by the wrong experience!
If by Rhema, you mean relying on inner feelings, impressions and experiences, I would strongly disagree with you. I believe in Sola Scriptura; that the Word of God is the only infallible rule of faith for every Christian.
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Not quarter-equipped. Not half-equipped. But “thoroughly equipped for every good work.” Anything God requires of the church is found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures alone are sufficient for every good work.
I stumbled on your blog today. Good stuff. I will read your older entries over the weekend.
Man, this post is interesting. Kent Henry, FOP, all that stuff sure brings back lots of memories. I was in CCC too, Student Venture, so am familiar with some of your influences.
later. keep writing. thanks
I am from a charismatic background and have been able to sit in quite a few Baptist churches. I have found that for the most part, there is something lacking in both churches.
In Charismatic churches I seem to witness that character and consistency seem to be lacking. I think this is due mostly to the fact that experience is so heavily made the focus that once the church service is over or once a person is left on their own, one begins to act out of emotion instead of character.
I think in non-Charismatic churches there is definitely a special kind of worship in their pursuit of theology and doctrine. However in the daily lives of many of their members, I've witnessed kind of godliness that lacks power; and by power I mean I the faith to believe and ask for miracles and the boldness to witness. I have also seen a lack of excitement in musical worship; I do not mean to say that everyone should be yelling or jumping up and down during a worship service, but I have seen a real sense of formality that comes across as impersonal, like the Holy Spirit is not REALLY living inside the person!
I think we all know what a lack of character means in the life of a Christian; no character means no guard against temtation. And unfortunately that has most of the church reeling from obvious mistakes for which we, the church, and the name of Jesus have received criticism.
However, I also understand that in order to fight the spiritual forces of wickedness in this world (Eph 6:12), the power of the Holy Spirit and His presence in my life have been THE instruments used to both change my sinful nature and help me reach out to others in loving, yet bold, evangelism (some people just need to hear a straightforward person speak truth into their lives).
I hope that this has helped both sides of the Charismatic issue see areas of needed improvement.
1) The following are the proves that angels could perform miracles healing and there are falling angels in the Scripture to be against God too:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”
2) The following are the proves that Angels could perform marvellous wonders:
Luke 1:7, “And they had no child, because that Elizabeth was barren and they both were now well stricken in years.” Luke 1:13, “but the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for their prayer is heard; and they wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John”. Luke 1:18, “And Zacharias said unto the angel, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my life well stricken in years.” Luke 1:19, “And THE ANGEL ANSWERING UNTO HIM, I AM GRABRIEL…” Luke 1:20, “AND BEHOLD, THOU SHALL BE DUMB, AND NOT ABLE TO SPEAK, UNTIL THE DAY THAT THESE THINGS SHALL BE PERFORMED, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” Luke 1:22, “And when he came out, HE COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO THEM”.
Matthews 28:1-2, “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Many Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And, behold, THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, FOR AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, AND ROLLED BACK THE STONE OF THE DOOR, and sat it.”
Acts 12:23, “Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”
3) Angels could appear in somebody’s dream:
Matthews 2:19, “…an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph…”; Matthew 1:20, “…an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream…”
As angels could perform wonders, are there any strongest proves to show that those wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God? If someone in contemporary Charismatic Church could prove it, we have to accept it. However, if nobody could prove whether the existence of wonder in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God or the Holy Spirit or Angels, there is a danger that one would comment that certain wonders are from God or from the Holy Spirit or from Jesus Christ and, in case if they are not and it would turn up that we have forced God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit to bear the name of doer and indirectly we have abused the name of Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit and this causes us to speak against Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit indirectly.
Could contemporary Charismatic Church claim that the miracles and wonder they perform in the name of Jesus Christ, is accompanied by correct teaching (in accordance with God’s Word) and righteous living?
A good Christian performs a wonder through the name of Jesus Christ in the Church. Many audiences would claim that this be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit. As fallen angels could perform wonders, i.e. Buddhists could perform wonders as it is listed in the Internet too. What if the wonders in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, the surrounding audience that claims to be the work of the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus Christ, would have indirectly abused the name of each of them even though they might not be the one to do it and it indirectly causes the defamation of the name of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit and they might have grieved as a result of the whole church speaking against them since they might not do it. The abusing of the name of Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit/God would cause the audience to commit continual sins as when and they address these be the work of God.
Can a Christian or a Catholics claim that he has followed the correct teaching and righteous living when day by day and month by month and year by year seeing people keep on claiming the wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit without telling them the danger that they would have sinned against God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit what if the so-called, wonders, might not be their work then?
For holy bark, you could see people running around the churches crazily to bark here and there.
For Holy laughter, you could see people laugh without stopping.
For manifestation of the Spirit, you see people roll from one place to another without knowing what he/she has done after performing.
All these are not mentioned in the book of Acts.
A number of people in the church mention that they receive revelation from God through words of knowledge, prophecy, tongues speaking, words of wisdom. Many prophets arose previously claimed that year 2000 and 1987 were the end of the world. However, the year before year 2000 and 1987, none of these people that claim to receive so-called, special gifts of the Holy Spirit, say that these years 2000 and 1987 are not the end of the world. If it is the work of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit should have informed all these people to correct their mistakes.
LUKE 9:49-50 ABOUT THOSE THAT DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS BUT COULD PERFORM WONDERS IN JESUS' NAME
Luke 9:49, 50 (TCNT), "Hereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”
Were these people that were mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 to be the disciples of Jesus since it is mentioned that they did not follow Jesus?
The following are the verses to prove that God's people would surely follow Jesus:
John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out”.
From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.
As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.
Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following Jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.
PROOF THAT ANGELS COULD PERFORM MIRACULOUS HEALING AND THERE ARE FALLEN ANGELS TOO:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.””
From John 5:3-4, it shows that angels could heal various kinds of illnesses whether they are blinded, halt and withered. As angels could perform miraculous healings and there are so-called, fallen angels, it is irrational to jump into conclusion that certain illnesses be healed to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit since some wonders might be the work of angels and/or fallen angels.
One might have quoted Luke 9:49-50 well that nobody should stop those people that perform miracles in Jesus’ name. However, he should meditate Matthew 7:22-23 carefully again that the so-called people to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders might be rejected by the Lord. For instance, if these people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders are the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, there should not be any strong ground for Jesus to reject them. However, Jesus will reject them despite they do perform wonders in Jesus’ name and there is a query the so-called wonders that they perform are from God. The following are the extracts:
Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!’
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Hi, I would have likely served and met you when you came to Trumpet Praise at Patadiz. I'm Errol. Interesting write up. Just wanted to day hi and perhaps try to put a face and name.
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